Country Music Listing Confusion....?!

[jchitty]

Quote:Well said, Chits.To sum it up, we feel your pain jimmy. Another way to look at this, is this is really just a music business issue, not a big plan to wipe out the "hillbillies".It happens in all forms of music. Real Singer/Songwriters are passed over for bing to "folky", and instead you get pop music ala john mayer and james blunt.Alternative rock started with Nirvana/Soundgarden and the industry turned to Candlebox/Lincoln ParkEven rap music started with Public Enemy/Run DMC, but what passes these days is more of the "B!thces and Hoes" stuff.I am not knocking the stuff that is out now, but I do not feel it is on par with the "originators". Country music is no exception. Even Americana/Roots Rock (which is the genre that i pitch to the most) is being effected. A lot of the listings now will say a la KT Tunstall. I like KT, but IMHO her album sounds poppy to me, speaking from a production point of view. I guess it's the cross over appeal that is "watering down" all genres. As an artist I don't like the trend because I feel like it takes away from the music a little bit.As a business man I like it because it's a way of reaching more people.Many of us TAXI members will probably be viewed as "sell outs" to "hard core" musicians, because we want to get paid for our work, and we are not afraid to put our music in a tv/movie/commercial, and to them maybe we are part of the problem. to me we are just playing by the rules of the game.In closing, I would like to quote a wise man (who is also a wise a$$ by his own admission ) by saying:Quote: Drink the purple kool-aid, and everything will be jes fine, son.RobThat's an excellent point too, Dusty....I was going to say this is happening in all genres as well, not just country, but I forgot to say it.....you're right on target here concerning your other points as well, music is being watered down, but then again, it's reaching more people. It's just a sign of the times we live in. It's not TAXI's fault this is happening of course, they just have to list what the client is asking for.Anyway, I promised a certain person that I'm gonna run to the post office this morning to send them a package, so I better sign off and go do so!

[matto]

Some excellent points made all around. Obviously the "Franklin, TN intelligentsia" makes an excellent scapegoat for those who would blame Hollywood for any and all developments they don't like, but I think the truth is rather a bit more complex. Among other things, the (sub)urbanization of America has had a profound impact on culture and demographics, and the fundamental transformation of the US media landscape (driven by a "free market ueber alles" ideology) has had a similar impact on radio station play lists from coast to coast. And neither of these issues are particularly driven by the "liberal elite". Just saying... Quote:Real Singer/Songwriters are passed over for bing to "folky", and instead you get pop music ala john mayer and james blunt.So...John Mayer is not a "Real Singer/Songwriter" huh?Hmmm...he sings rather well...he writes some pretty amazing songs, from both a lyrical and musical standpoint...okay so he plays the guitar about 10 times better than all the "little strummer boys", and girls, out there, but really, not a real singer/songwriter?I for one don't feel his music is "watered down", I think it's 100 proof John Mayer. I think he's doing exactly what he wants to be doing, which is a major reason for his success.Labeling everybody who has commercial success a "sell-out" is rather condescending, because not only does it imply that we are somehow privy to what's going on in another person's head, but also that we ourselves could do just as well as that "sell-out" if we wanted to...we just have "higher moral standards" so we choose not to. Yeah right... Please don't take this as an attack on you personally Rob, I agree with your point overall. It's just that that sentence really struck me as kind of pompous...and I know your not a pompous person and I'm sure it wasn't meant that way... matto

[matto]

Quote:This post was started over the classification of songs. I should have been more clear, I was not insinuating that John Mayer cannot sing or write songs. Metalica sings and writes songs, but I do not classify them as Singer/Songwriter's as a genre. To me JM falls under pop.Well, we can argue about definitions. And I think actually that's exactly what started this post. I think what makes John Mayer a singer/songwriter is not only that he sings and writes his own songs, but that he can convincingly perform them by himself with just his guitar. The fact that he often chooses not to do that still doesn't make him pop. It's the age old question...did Dylan cease to be a singer/songwriter when he chose to go electric?The industry defines John Mayer and James Blunt and Michelle Branch as singer/songwriters. We can disagree with that definition...we can each have our own definition as a matter of fact. That just makes it a lot harder to communicate among ourselves and with the industry. I chose to use standard industry terms (inasmuch as they are "standard") not because I'm a yes man who can't think for himself, but because it's a lot easier to say, "I'm gonna try to write a contemporary country song" than..."I'm gonna write a watered down adult contemporary song with a steel guitar, what those San Francisco lesbian record execs in Franklin TN call contemporary country"...

[og]

Hey jimmynashville, I can pretty much agree with you on every point. I'm an Ozark hillbilly, and folksinger to boot (don't think I got some cross-genre issues?) The only major thing I disagree with is who you are blaming. Follow the money, brother, where's it coming from?

[ddusty]

I agree Matto,I guess i was trying to make an analogy between what jimmynashville is going through and what I noticed in genre's that i submit to. What fit's the description of S/SW today probably would not have fit 15 years ago. And yes, it is our duty as songwriters to evolve with the music industry if we want to sell-out work (sorry, couldn't resist) I am not complaining about these developments, just pointing out my observations.I am probably not using the pop term correctly either, to me pop = top 40. Just short for popular (nothing wrong with being popular )Rob

[rcase]

Quote:Labeling everybody who has commercial success a "sell-out" is rather condescending, because not only does it imply that we are somehow privy to what's going on in another person's head, but also that we ourselves could do just as well as that "sell-out" if we wanted to...we just have "higher moral standards" so we choose not to. Yeah right... I just wanted to add something re the attitude I think matto is referencing.. as I think we've all heard it expressed in different ways. For me, I'm thinking of when somebody says, "I could write that crap they're playing on the radio", or something to that extent. Immediately, I find myself wanting to say "Then why don't you do it? I mean, even if only once, to finance other projects that are more personal for you. If it's really that easy (and yes, I admit some of it does sound as if it were constructed within an hour or two at most), why don't you do it, and get out from under that day job, etc??"

[matto]

Quote:I have no payola money, however, that stuff is expensive...Comeon now, what with all the money you're saving on coffee and shoes? Honestly though, if you look at the stats, payola doesn't work all that well. there are countless of examples where they spent ungodly amounts of money trying to get a song to hit and it still didn't.A song with payola money behind it has a better shot at succeeding, just like one recorded by a superstar does. Yet neither gurantees the song will become a hit. Quote:The song is "Picture" by Kid Rock/Sheryl Crow.100% with you on that one. I never understood why that song was played on country radio, and it actually pissed me off a little. And I like a lot of the pop country...or "corn pop", as I like to call it . But there's not a even kernel of corn it that song... matto

[sgs4u]

Here Jimmy, let's try this.There actually is, no confusion here, because Taxi is supplying music to fit the NEEDS of a consumer. The consumer says what he/she wants, and Taxi tries to find it. So what if the Kid Rock/Sheryl Crow thing sucked, and tanked. That is an extreme example, and you're using it to dilute your point, all the way to moot. I wish I'd wrote the damn thing tho. And it's likely if you write songs a lot, and someone gives you the opportunity to write a 2nd rate duet/ballad for the 2 of those artists, you'd say yes. I'd say thank-you so mushy for this opportunity, I have 50 tunes we can peruse thru, and my friends have another 100 or so. And if Taxi runs a listing looking for 2nd rate ballad duets, I'll submit some of my lousier stuff... That's just not gonna happen. Get over your grief, and get to work. I like discussing where things could or might go, but not so much where you think they ought, to be going. Do you know what I mean? Let's deal with how things are, and if you wanna make changes, go after the entities that can implement your ideology. Not songwriters... All we do is write what comes out, or what'll stand a chance of getting cut or placed. Collectively, this forum does not wield the power or clout you'd need to have, to make such a grand change. I think you will find support for your perspective here. However, if you're thinking that the BOSS, is going to start shouting from the rooftops, THAT AIN"T COUNTRY, (well yes, he can be outspoken...) surely you must see, that would be business suicide for Taxi. Are you suggesting Taxi or anyone should dictate to the entertainment INDUSTRY, what they should be playlisting? Go on ahead, I'll jes set thisun out, mebbe watch a spell...The entities that decide what songs get into heavy rotation on hit radio, are not that hard to identify. There are a few labels, there are a few entertainment conglomerates (who own 1000's of media outlets/radio stations), and there are a very few, extremely influencial radio consultants. You seem to think they do a lousy job of deciding what should be allowable, as part of the country genre. Lots of people agree with you. But the decisions that these powerful entities make are about what earns money, and what loses money. I'm not applying for any of those jobs. Because they're not about making music. I will let them decide on the rules and genres, and then I will chose to either adhere to them, or break them willingly. I'm not gonna tell them what to do. (ok, not for a long time) What is on the radio, has never been about ART, unless you broaden the term to include the business of selling that art. Creating hits is also about the selling of the art. They're tied together. I think that's a fabulous art/craft unto itself. The marriage of art and commerce. I readily admit, "The Music Business, According to JimmyNashville," has a nice ring to it. "The World of Music, by steve à gilbert," sounds like an equally fascinating title. Now who's opinion matters more? Who frikkin needs to bother caring what we think? Whoever makes the most inroads into the existing system, is likely the most able to change things. Or we could decide to live outside the system, away from the man (cue Jack Black...), and throw silly darts poisoned with cynicism and pessimism. I threw enough darts for a coupla decades, I'd rather join in the fun now, and play ball. If the country genre includes all the nasty things you see, well you could just sit back and wait. 'Cause it'll all comes around again, ya know. While you're waiting it out, I'm adapting to what exists, and where I notice things are going. If, by luck or fate you should happen to facilitate the kind of change you are advocating, your phone would ring with me congratulating you fervently, on your new position of influence. I wouldn't even feel like I was eating crow, cause my only focus, is trying to make music that guys like you, need. So it doesn't matter to me who decides what fits the genre, only that I learn it, and respond to it.I mean no disrespect to Taxi forumers with this, but Jimmy, this is a creative/learning enviroment, not a political movement. Many of us have political views that matter, but that's not why were here, on this Taxi forum. you really have to try this purple kool-aid, you'll feel so relaxed steve Quote:Yet another thought, and this is an example of what I'm talking about, there was a song a couple of years back that was played to no end on pop country radio. I defy anyone to tell me anything about this song that was Country. It's ridiculous that anyone would ever even think that this song was Country, but it was defined that way, and eventually accepted that way. It is the perfect example of pop country payola bullcrap.The song is "Picture" by Kid Rock/Sheryl Crow. What element in that song, lyrical, instrumental, or otherwise, is even remotely Country?!?! I can call "Colors" by Ice-T Classic Rock, but just because I call it that, does the fact that I call it that make it so? I can call "Oops I did it again" by Britney Spears Classical, does that make it Classical? If every program director in radio bought into selling it that way, and they played "Colors" on the Classic Rock station, and the Britney Spears song on NPR, people would start believing it, however, because the public, as an aggregate, is accepting but fickle. Especially if you market something to people it's not normally marketed to. Now you've drawn in a brand new "country" fan base with one song. Mainly because you have a large group of non-Country fans thinking that's what Country is, so you can market junk pop Country as real Country to a much larger group of people. At least for a time, if enough people believe it, it starts to be true, no matter who is spoon-feeding what to them.Avril Lavigne claims to be punk, but when Joe Strummer died, she was asked by a reporter how she felt about his passing. She replied "who?"...Avril Lavigne, is simply the 2007's chic/punk flavor. And she's Canadian, so she MUST be GREAT. Because she is a punker at heart, she's also pretty good at not giving a rat's a$$ about what some reporter is asking her. Dylan was the same with the press.

[Casey H]

It's funny that you mention "Picture". I've been thinking about posting a bunch of songs that would probably get rejected on the spot by a publisher or screener but were successful. That post would just be for fun, not to say people should expect to write songs like that and make it. New writers should always go with the odds in their favor especially when it's a million to one to start with.My guess is that a professional would say that the lyrics to "Picture" are not believable. These two people love each other so much that they sleep with everything else in sight? Now, maybe you could say that in the life style of a male star on the road, it might be plausible (regardless of your moral opinion)- that is frequently how they act. But add to it the woman who loves him so much she is also sleeping around? No chauvinism intended, but I don't think this reflects how (in general) people act. Casey

[jchitty]

Quote:Wow, I don't believe that my malcontented nature has created such discussion. A few clarifications are in order, however...I believe that the current state of a segment of the Nashville recording industry is to market to demographic groups outside the conventional country audience. I'm not knocking everything in Nashville or I wouldn't be here. Also, I don't like music written by commitee, which is the typical pop-country song. A few people with a 9 to 5 downtown sit down in the morning and read a memo from the Executive Vice President of Crappy Music that says we need a song of the subject A for artist B that runs 3 minutes and 55 seconds, because we already have the video, and we need it by Friday. Go to work. File a TPS report by noon.Furthermore, yes, I'm joking about "brushing my tooth" and trailers, etc., but I've been hit with all that kind of b.s. by playing music that has subject matter involving certain things that my type of people enjoy, which certain non-native Nashville types don't even understand, like hunting, 4-wheel drive trucks, car racing, etc. Because someone enjoys what may be stereotypical diversions does not make them everything the stereotype is.The South has evolved, but cosmopolitan? I sure as hell hope not. I'm doing everything I can, anyway, to keep it from becoming that. Cosmopolitan implies "multi-cultural", a code word for the denegration of the indigenous culture in favor of something from outside. The end result is the demise of the culture.Birmingham, AL may have a Starbuck's and Nashville may have a Nordstrom's, but any good 'ole boy worth his salt hasn't spent $5 for a latte or let his woman spend $500 for a pair of shoes. The "diverse" population from California, New York, and Miami are the demand for that crap. BTW, I could afford to buy a $5 cup of coffee and a $500 pair of shoes, but I get a 10 cent cup of coffee from my coffee maker, and I got a $100 pair of Dan Posts from French's Boots. Who's the dumbass?A final thought, if I had the opportunity to completely inundate the public with a song, like they do on pop country radio, by playing it twice an hour every day, all day, while they're all listening to a radio station at work and can't get up and change the channel, I could make them like almost anything. I have no payola money, however, that stuff is expensive...Umm, if you go back and read my original post, you'd see that I said "I knew you were joking about the 'hillbilly' thing to drive home a point. So I did get where you were going with that.Here's the deal.....I think you might be very narrow in what you believe country should be. That's about as bluntly as I can put it. And those 'good old boys who are worth their salt' you mention are listening to all types of country music now, even what's cranked out by the Executive President of Crappy Music.And I'm thinking those good 'ole boys might be appalled by what they see as a certain 'elitism' in you. Yeah, you cloak that in "I don't drink five dollar lattes or wear expensive shoes," but it comes off as snobbery to me nonetheless....maybe reverse snobbery in this case.The South is changing, whether you like it or not and Nashville is having to cater to new and different tastes. Young people are the major buyers now, and many of them don't care for traditional country as much. Matt has a good point, and I brought this up as well. The South is not so much an agrarian society anymore. We're turning into a suburban society and people in the 'burbs are country music buyers now....and that has had an effect on what people purchase. These people drink lattes, and they are NOT ASHAMED, hehe. In fact, I will now create an over the top stereotype about people of the New South....we are Starbucks latte drinkin', Norstrom shoppin' Southerners.....we don't drink ten cent coffee and we drive big 'ole fancy Mercedes and BMW's, and we wear Jimmy Choos. Here's a song I wrote in mind with that.....look for it to be a BIG HIT: Hehehehe. This is about a person who lives in a suburb, but they still grow a vegetable garden in in the back yard of their subdivision tract home. Call it 'agrarian meets suburban.'Vegetable Gardenjchitty copyright 2007Verse 1I'm a Southern Yuppie with Southern waysAnd I come from farming rootsI may work in an office all dayBut I still wear cowboy bootsSometimes the stress it gets to meAnd life can be so hardThat's when I find some therapyIn a plot in my backyardChorus:I gotta vegetable gardenVegetable gardenI got peas and butterbeansTomato plants and collard greensI got squash and peppers tooThere ain't no plant that I can't doI got a vegetable gardenVerse 2The boss, he's breathing down neckI can't wait to get awayTo a slice of heaven near my deckWhere the cukes and the watermelons playMy tomatoes are red and prettyAnd my peppers will knock you outI love getting my hands dirty I just wanna scream and shoutChorus I gotta vegetable gardenVegetable gardenI got peas and butterbeansTomato plants and collard greensI got squash and peppers tooThere ain't no plant that I can't doI got a vegetable garden.....