For the country writers:

[rivercitymusic]

Regarding: (and don't kick me off for my reply please. you're one of the upper echelon i believe?)"I think it's important when you talk about songs like that of Toby keith and then adk if TAXI would have forwarded them. Well do you mean forward hiim and his song as an artist? Toby gets away with a lot of that because he writes a lot of his own songs. A lot easier to get cut when you are the artist writing them. Would they forward it for a rascall flatts listing? probably not."I'm not certain an artist like Rascall flatts would ever request music like TK or Trace Atkins or ?? would do. They have their own style which is why their fans might not be TK fans or TA fans or Garth Brooks fans. Lets take all the artists out of the formula:I'm only referencing that good is good, great is great and that when something is really great it gets forwarded. If it's not forwarded, it's not great. A&Rs are not perfect but with all the checks and balances in the industry or what i call filters, by the time a song gets on a cd it is more likely than not, for that artist, label, etc. a great song waiting on the listening audience to determine just how great it is.I've never heard lyrics that sold 10 or 20 million records that were not really a great set of lyrics. It's possible that others have but i have not. Were they all in the genre of music that i like, nope. but to the listeners of that style of music it must have been to sell that number of records. And years ago, as a pup, when i was listening to music in the 60's, it was a benchmark for a song to sell a mere one million records and to be considered a hit song.IMHODoc

[rivercitymusic]

**********There are some songs on the radio today that make me change the station! Yet they're #1! Perhaps I should look at writing some songs I don't like...maybe they'll be hits**********because you may not like a specific song does not mean it's not a great song according to its buying and listening public which is the final determining factor.and i disagree with you regarding another statement. i do believe people primarily listen to lyrics because as far back as the blues, stories have been told and people connect to those stories. they don't go around singing a tune they have heard because it's not great. they do it because to them they connected to the lyrics, the story of the song and that made it great for them. When enough people feel the same way, the song becomes a hit and is from that point forward guaranteed it's place as a Great Song.Doc

[squids]

Oookay.....talk about splitting hairs, lol! Interesting posts. But if we're talkin' about Taxi, the axiom here referred to again and again by the screeners themselves is that they absolutely must screen for whatever the listing is asking for, NOT for whateva they think is a top 10 song.That said, it doesn't stop them from passing that amazing song around the water cooler, at which point it'll definitely garner some interest. But certainly it's a roundabout way to get someone's attention. As fo what makes top 10 music and what doesn't.......I'm not even sure it's up to the fans as much anymore if we're discussing radio........they're getting pounded with whatever Clear Channel's music directors say is to be played this week (and that's gotta involve all sorts of variables). So if the public didn't like the song to begin with, they'll definitely at least tolerate it by the time they've heard it rotated 10 times in 8 hours. I think fans have much more power online. Those bands who're able to score massive hits on their sites as well as earnin' some decent income via downloads (although everyone's gettin' pirated now........Arrrgh matey!! hahahahah) will eventually be found by some A/R, label suit type.

[rivercitymusic]

Yeah i think some hair splitting has been going on. I tried to not go there but that's what conversations do. I'm guilty too of not listening or really reading what's there before mouthing off. I'm that way!lolI gotta disagree with you with regard to fans. We Americans, the listening public, are spoiled. We'll call in an verbally chastise radio stations for playing some tune that generally is not liked. Got a friend in OK that gets calls all the time to quit playing or to start playing this or that at the CW radio station he works at. He says what the listeners want, they get cause that keeps advertisers aronud when you can show large listening numbers.I think the fans rule the roost. That's why TK (here we go again) has been successful. The label said no, he said FK you, did his own thing and the fans love it. Not the label but the fan love it so he's got the number 1's to back it up. So do many artists but without the fans there would be no record sales. However, even without the stars and labels there would be music. See what i mean. You just can't keep a great song down.Doc.

[squids]

Well, I've got two friends, one's a DJ, the other's a music supe at 2 different radio stations both owned by ClearChannel. Both say it doesn't matta what the heck the public calls them, they play what they're told to play. In the old days, it was different, but these are the days of corporate radio and suits rule music. Advertising dollars talk but honestly, the public's gonna listen to a station that mostly caters to what they want and most of the public doesn't bother to call in and complain. They surf instead. And keep hittin' that same station again and again while they do it, enough to keep the ad men comin' around.Can you keep a good song down? For heaven's sake, yes you can. There're maybe what? 2% max of the entire country's population that are musicians. Of those, I'll be generous and say maybe .5% are extremely good at what they do. We can include songwriters in here as well. Of those, how many do you think have access to big name artists who can cut their songs? How many have the drive to keep pounding away at the glass door day after day, year after year? How many artists do you think can afford to tell their label to get f*$ked (paraphrasing you) and run off with enough fans to keep their heads above water?What it takes is enough power at the beginning to have enough at the end. Toby had enough to do what he wanted. There're enough examples of that all over music: Mariah Carey, Radiohead, shall I go on? Enough money = freedom to do what you want.It takes perserverance, drive, focus, talent, a huge capacity to learn and to compromise and still stay humble enough to learn some more, a ton of other things to make it in this field. If you're missing enough of those things, it's gonna be very difficult to get your stuff out there. That doesn't even include social skills that will help you find the contacts you need and keep them. Absolutely you can keep a good song down.Enough hair splittin'. Now my head's splittin. I respect your opinion but I think it might be a bit optimistic.

[rivercitymusic]

Well i apprecaite and respect your response and views. That's what a conversation is about.The positive side of life is where i live. It's gotten me semi-retired at 49 and fully retired at 53. All of my kids are college grads. I'm traveling the country in my rv when i'm not in Red River, NM. Life is as hard a hill to climb as any industry. Hard work will always get you by. So I can't complain. No wait! Yes I can! Just joking. Everyone has a different view from a different window in life. I respect them all and only ask that i have a small place in this big old world to put my feet up, strum a few chords, drink some good wine, squeeze a fine woman and die with a smile on my face. Sprinkle my ashes from a mountain top.Doc

[rivercitymusic]

You know on another note. Regarding how many musicians there are in the world. If you consider every musician that plays, paid or not, and singers; there may be many more than we think.As buggs henderson said at a concert:"how many of you are musicians .............. " maybe 25 raised their hands"how many of you play guitar ............."about half the audience raised their hands.so it may be another hair splitting situation.are the only musicians paid, or are musicians what merriam webster defines one as?Doc

[mojobone]

Nov 21, 2008, 8:16pm, squids wrote:Well, I've got two friends, one's a DJ, the other's a music supe at 2 different radio stations both owned by ClearChannel. Both say it doesn't matta what the heck the public calls them, they play what they're told to play. In the old days, it was different, but these are the days of corporate radio and suits rule music. Advertising dollars talk but honestly, the public's gonna listen to a station that mostly caters to what they want and most of the public doesn't bother to call in and complain. They surf instead. And keep hittin' that same station again and again while they do it, enough to keep the ad men comin' around.Can you keep a good song down? For heaven's sake, yes you can. There're maybe what? 2% max of the entire country's population that are musicians. Of those, I'll be generous and say maybe .5% are extremely good at what they do. We can include songwriters in here as well. Of those, how many do you think have access to big name artists who can cut their songs? How many have the drive to keep pounding away at the glass door day after day, year after year? How many artists do you think can afford to tell their label to get f*$ked (paraphrasing you) and run off with enough fans to keep their heads above water?What it takes is enough power at the beginning to have enough at the end. Toby had enough to do what he wanted. There're enough examples of that all over music: Mariah Carey, Radiohead, shall I go on? Enough money = freedom to do what you want.It takes perserverance, drive, focus, talent, a huge capacity to learn and to compromise and still stay humble enough to learn some more, a ton of other things to make it in this field. If you're missing enough of those things, it's gonna be very difficult to get your stuff out there. That doesn't even include social skills that will help you find the contacts you need and keep them. Absolutely you can keep a good song down.Enough hair splittin'. Now my head's splittin. I respect your opinion but I think it might be a bit optimistic. I believe squiddy knows whereof she speaks, but also that Clear Channel's days are numbered; the technology for a radio station to know with absolute certainty how many listeners are tuned in, for how long and where they are on the planet has already arrived, and the voice of those listeners will be heard. It's a new day. Carpe diem.

[claire]

It takes perserverance, drive, focus, talent, a huge capacity to learn and to compromise and still stay humble enough to learn some more, a ton of other things to make it in this field. If you're missing enough of those things, it's gonna be very difficult to get your stuff out there. That doesn't even include social skills that will help you find the contacts you need and keep them. Absolutely you can keep a good song down.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------Couldn't have said it better myself, Squids.Claire

[matthoggard]

Squids is right.There a many, many great songs on albums that never get radio play. We all know this. The difference here is "great songs" and "great radio songs".I was a broadcasting major in college. I worked the local campus radio station as a DJ. Our play lists were based on the current commercial radio market at that time.When I came in for a shift, the previous DJ had all my music (3 hours worth) stacked up and ready to cue. All i had to do was play the liners and commercials (on CART tape mind you) and songs at the specified time on the playsheet.I worked the 7-11 shift. I could only play requests after 9pm. The students called constantly to request songs and bitch about songs that were played. I asked my director about why the playlist rules were so strict and he said, " this is how it is in the real radio world and we are preparing you for what the corporate stations are going to expect".Well I was the "maverick". I would play the requests when I wanted. I would even throw my own picks in at times. The students loved it. I constantly got calls telling me how cool the "show" was.Needless to say, my "show" was part of my grade and I always got low grades for doing this.My director would review my tapes and just ream me about not following guidelines.I was "removed" from the DJ lineup after 1 semster. After that experience I changed majors and left the broadcasting world to the sheep and the rest of the herd.Radio will always play what the suits tell them to. The suits are being told by the Record companies what to play and in turn the ad men are buying time based on perceived audience.Radio is just the money making machine. Artists and songs are the fuel that keeps it going.Unfortunately most of it is very low octane and the gas mileage sucks.M~