Help! I don't understand this feedback

[eye90prod]

Help! I don't understand this feedback.

I submitted this track:
https://www.taxi.com/members/HlytJwZ_TV ... ew-romance

to listing S250502RM - ROMANTIC, UPLIFTING INSTRUMENTAL CUES:
https://www.taxi.com/listings/S250502RM

It was returned with the following feedback:
What I like most about this song:
"Nice uplifting feel to this song, and good layers."
I think you could improve this song by:
"At the end of the cue you slow down all the instruments except the loop, leading to a disjointed, out of time feel."
I returned or forwarded this song because:
"This is so close. The slow down at the end needs to be even and together right up to the end."

The screener likes the track but believes the ending is a deal breaker. Why?

Nothing is "slowing down". The tempo is the same. The piano arpeggios continue the same motif. The ending is simply extended into a stinger ending. I think it brings the uplifting feel of the track to a nice climax. The editor can always splice it out if they don't want it (Matt Vander Boegh talks about this in his videos). What did I do wrong? Would I really have been better off with a simple button ending?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

Lucas (Eye90)

[WSAO]

From 1:30, it sounds disjointed to me as well. I think the main issue is the drums — the cymbals feel isolated without support from the kick, and some of the toms sound out of context. Overall, the drum programming feels dated and poorly executed. The melody is nice, but the production could really use a revamp. Cheers.

[eye90prod]

From 1:30, it sounds disjointed to me as well. I think the main issue is the drums — the cymbals feel isolated without support from the kick, and some of the toms sound out of context. Overall, the drum programming feels dated and poorly executed. The melody is nice, but the production could really use a revamp. Cheers.

Thank you for listening. Your feedback is helpful! I finger-drummed that and thought I did a pretty good job, but I will re-evaluate.

[RealPickle]

To be honest the strings sound late to me the entire track, but there's nothing particular about the ending that sticks out as being worse than the rest.

Not sure what sample library you are using or what you did to program them, but often legato strings will sound a bit late on very rhythmic, percussive tracks and you need to bump the midi slightly ahead of the beat to make it sound in time.

Same with the staccato hits at the beginning, which also sound just behind to me.

[eye90prod]

To be honest the strings sound late to me the entire track, but there's nothing particular about the ending that sticks out as being worse than the rest.

Not sure what sample library you are using or what you did to program them, but often legato strings will sound a bit late on very rhythmic, percussive tracks and you need to bump the midi slightly ahead of the beat to make it sound in time.

Same with the staccato hits at the beginning, which also sound just behind to me.

Thanks for listening Geoff. I always export the stems and adjust the MIDI to try and make sure every track is aligned timing-wise but there certainly could be some error there. I'll try and do better!

Lucas

[macomposer]

HI Lucas,

(Eye90) - cool moniker!

Yeah, this is really good! I can see what the screener was saying but it's not slowing down.. That's just the way they described it. Who knows how many of these the screener listened to that day... it may have been the way it came off to them at the moment so that's what they wrote.

Here's what I heard: Geoff (RealPickle) may be right that the strings are a bit behind... but that doesn't bother me that much. What does bother me is the sound of the strings. They're a bit on the synth-y side of things, particularly the legato lines that come in with the melody. The staccatos are okay - they just sound a little bit dated, but this type of sound has been around for a while and I can kinda tell myself that it's par for the course. But when the arrangement gets more detailed (the string arrangement I mean), then it starts to sound a bit too... retro.. A couple suggestions: if you can mix and match string libraries as this will make the sound a bit more believable if done well. Be mindful of the sizes of your string ensembles when doing this. For example, I wouldn't take Spitfire Symphonic Strings that has 16/14/12/10/8 and blend it with East West Hollywood which is another string section of the same size. I mean, you can do it and it can sound epic and larger than life, but not at all like it's a real ensemble. Rather something like Spitfire Chamber Strings 4/3/3/3/3 and blend that with something that slightly larger. Staying with these same two companies - East West Hollywood Strings 2 is a much smaller chamber ensemble and would blend better.

I'm not advocating blowing a lot of dough necessarily. The way to do it is to examine what you have, and then see how you can work it. If you get to the point where you realize there's something that you really don't have and that you need, then blow a lot of dough on it.

And the other thing about strings: a small EQ cut around 2KHz will help things sound not so synth-y.

While I appreciate and Iove that you finger drummed the... uh.. drums... you have to put your producer's hat on after that performance and really evaluate what the finger drummer did. I can hear what you're after in the performance, but it's not quite there... Either keep doing it until you get it right in the performance (time consuming), get it down in midi and do some meticulous editing afterwards (not that time consuming if you know what you're doing), or perhaps the easiest, change the performance and arrangement to something simpler that works better at the point (could take forever or a few minutes).

This was meant to be a short reply, but I just had coffee, so sorry to prattle on.. Hopefully, something in here is helpful.

All the best,
Mark

[eye90prod]

HI Lucas,

(Eye90) - cool moniker!

Yeah, this is really good! I can see what the screener was saying but it's not slowing down.. That's just the way they described it. Who knows how many of these the screener listened to that day... it may have been the way it came off to them at the moment so that's what they wrote.

Here's what I heard: Geoff (RealPickle) may be right that the strings are a bit behind... but that doesn't bother me that much. What does bother me is the sound of the strings. They're a bit on the synth-y side of things, particularly the legato lines that come in with the melody. The staccatos are okay - they just sound a little bit dated, but this type of sound has been around for a while and I can kinda tell myself that it's par for the course. But when the arrangement gets more detailed (the string arrangement I mean), then it starts to sound a bit too... retro.. A couple suggestions: if you can mix and match string libraries as this will make the sound a bit more believable if done well. Be mindful of the sizes of your string ensembles when doing this. For example, I wouldn't take Spitfire Symphonic Strings that has 16/14/12/10/8 and blend it with East West Hollywood which is another string section of the same size. I mean, you can do it and it can sound epic and larger than life, but not at all like it's a real ensemble. Rather something like Spitfire Chamber Strings 4/3/3/3/3 and blend that with something that slightly larger. Staying with these same two companies - East West Hollywood Strings 2 is a much smaller chamber ensemble and would blend better.

I'm not advocating blowing a lot of dough necessarily. The way to do it is to examine what you have, and then see how you can work it. If you get to the point where you realize there's something that you really don't have and that you need, then blow a lot of dough on it.

And the other thing about strings: a small EQ cut around 2KHz will help things sound not so synth-y.

While I appreciate and Iove that you finger drummed the... uh.. drums... you have to put your producer's hat on after that performance and really evaluate what the finger drummer did. I can hear what you're after in the performance, but it's not quite there... Either keep doing it until you get it right in the performance (time consuming), get it down in midi and do some meticulous editing afterwards (not that time consuming if you know what you're doing), or perhaps the easiest, change the performance and arrangement to something simpler that works better at the point (could take forever or a few minutes).

This was meant to be a short reply, but I just had coffee, so sorry to prattle on.. Hopefully, something in here is helpful.

All the best,
Mark

Hi Mark,

Thank you so much for listening and "prattling on". I appreciate the feedback!

I appreciate that the screeners are churning through these, but they literally said "this is so close" and then returned it for a "slow down at the end". That may be the way it came off to them at the moment but I really need to know exactly what they meant so I can try to fix it in the future. I interpreted "the end" literally to mean the last few bars but so far 2 people have said they don't like the drums in the entire final section. If that's really the what the screener meant then I can accept that and move forward. And either way it's obviously a problem area since 2 people have pointed it out.

Regarding the strings, I'm still learning how to layer them. Here I layered Miroslav Philharmonik 2 with the new free Berlin Strings. I have some other libraries too and am just starting to figure out combinations that work well. Thank you for the suggestions. This is the first time I've heard anybody suggest an EQ cut at 2K and I will definitely try that. For this listing though they specifically said synth plucks and pads were OK so maybe "synthy" strings didn't bother them.

Thanks again!
Lucas

[cosmicdolphin]

Piano sounds like it goes outta time at 2 mins to me - I think that's what the screener is alluding to

Agree with other comments too, staccato strings are late. Legato strings need more work with the CC controller for me to make them more realistic.

Not a fan of the finger drumming personally, it doesn't sound like a real drummer to me. Don't ignore the drum patterns that come with the popular Drum VSTs..EzDrummer - Additivtive Drums - Slate etc. They are all played by real drummers who are better than all but the best finger drummers so they tend to sound more realistic. You can still work on them to make them your own as well.

Mark

[eye90prod]

Piano sounds like it goes outta time at 2 mins to me - I think that's what the screener is alluding to

Agree with other comments too, staccato strings are late. Legato strings need more work with the CC controller for me to make them more realistic.

Not a fan of the finger drumming personally, it doesn't sound like a real drummer to me. Don't ignore the drum patterns that come with the popular Drum VSTs..EzDrummer - Additivtive Drums - Slate etc. They are all played by real drummers who are better than all but the best finger drummers so they tend to sound more realistic. You can still work on them to make them your own as well.

Mark

Hi Mark,

These are some good observations. Thanks for listening!

For me, finger drumming is a way to add the human element that you don't get with loops. I think your suggestion to look at MIDI patterns laid down by real drummers makes a lot of sense, since I'm a keyboard player and not a drummer.

I went back and looked at the end of the track and I think the piano is OK, however there are 2 measures where I tried to do some syncopation in the drums that ended up with the snare on 3 instead of 2 and 4. Although I like how it sounds, I can see how someone might hear that as slowing down or disjointed. I'm wondering if that's what the screener's issue was.

Sometimes I think I try and do too much. I struggle with trying to keep it simple yet still maintaining interest and that "sense of forward motion" that they want.

Yes the strings could use some tweaking, but now I'm starting to think that if I kept the drum track more simple and consistent this would have got a forward.

Thanks again,
Lucas

[AlanHall]

Listened to the beginning and compared it to the end. For me, the change in the moving lines to a 'half-time feel' (my words) in the last couple bars did feel like slowing down when the cue should be driving to the end. JM2C

Overall, your cue is very close to sample ref tracks I've heard. Good job!