Help on a TAXI collab

[jchitty]

Steve Gilbert and I are trying to co-write a song together. It's called "When No One Else Believes." I wrote this song and sent it to him, and he had some suggestions for it. We were discussing this yesterday, and we thought some of the phrasing in the lyrics might sound too 'dated' for the youthful market we're pitching it too....mainly, the pop R&B market. I was gonna highlight the lyrics in question, but now that I think of it, I think I'll just list the lyrics and let people decide on their own terms what might sound dated...that is, if anyone wants to chime in. I will also post my very rough demo of me singing. This is a Band in the Box demo only designed to give a rough idea of the melody....in no way, is it the finished demo. The production is pretty raw....in fact, there's NO production, hehe. My voice is off pitch, the whole thing is a mess, but it wasn't designed to be a demo, just a template. This isn't set in stone either...if this song just ain't working, we'll scrap it. Here's the TAXI link for "When No One Else Believes." (it's the only song I have on download)http://www.taximusic.com/hosting/home.p ... id=2572And here are the lyrics....feel free to rip them apart. When No One Else Believes Verse 1Everywhere around youSomeone's gonna doubt youAs you travel on that journeyTo points unknownIt's so easy to give upTo stay stuck in a hopeless rutBut if you stay the courseYou might make it homeChorus:Oh, you have to believeWhen no one else believesYou gotta have that visionWhen no one else can seeOh, you have to believeWhen no one else believesAnd you'll rise like the morning sunFloatin' the over the treesVerse 2Those hard knocks they can claim youAnd those critics, they can tame youWhen those goals you're reaching forAre so far awaySome will call you crazyWhen you start dream chasingListen to your heartNot what others sayRepeat chorus

[billg]

Hey there Chits! After listening to your demo my impression is that you have the "bones" there for a good folk song. I can't hear the R&B/Pop you're going for here. Then again it could be that modern Pop isn't my thing so I might just be lacking imagination.PS - your voice doesn't really sound that bad on this, you ned to cut youself a little slack!

[deantaylor]

Chits,Didn't think of it myself, but after I read Bill's comment .. I agree with him .. there might be a folk song in there, one with a New Orleans flavor. To get to the youth market, I'd start by rephrasing these lyrics:points unknownstay the coursehard knocks The ones that use 'old' sayings. Not sure the young are gonna relate to them. Other than that it might just be changing some connector words to get a little more of a 'street' type vibe/rythm going, you use 'that vision .. that journey', maybe just 'vision', and maybe 'the way' instead of 'that journey'. Somethings like that.That's just a quick thought or 2. Not sure of them. If it were mine, I think I'd leave it and make it more of an 'older' person song and write something else for the younger crowd, but ....Dean

[squids]

My guess is you and Steve are thinking of going for gospel-slanted R/B? Ala old Mariah or possibly new Mandisa? That could work. I deliberately didn't listen to the demo and just read the direction you wanted and the lyrics.I'd make every single word count in this song, chits......or you could go bill's way and do a folk thing and keep it as is. I like this song, it's upbeat. Me? I'd cut out the first line and go straight for the throat:'Someone's gonna doubt you'That's off the top of my head. I know this way sounds harsher but maybe that's part of the gimmick.....the world IS kinda harsh but it's hope that gets us through it. I'll add more lata if something comes to me.

[sgs4u]

Actually, it's a very interesting experiment to me. What the original thought/demo purpose is, is to create a song that could be sung by winner's of American Idol. Easy to do? If it turns out Gospel / R&B, that's fine. The melodic / lyric template we discussed is more like: Love will Save the Day, by Des'reeor Unwritten, by Natasha BedingfieldSquids, your suggestion starting with that line, and making it harsher, is perfect, thank you. Quote:My guess is you and Steve are thinking of going for gospel-slanted R/B? I deliberately didn't listen to the demo and just read the direction you wanted and the lyrics.Me? I'd cut out the first line and go straight for the throat:'Someone's gonna doubt you'I know this way sounds harsher but maybe that's part of the gimmick.....the world IS kinda harsh but it's hope that gets us through it.

[twilsbach]

I hear what you're saying on the phrasing. IF you're going for that modern AC, modern pop sound ala Natasha Bedingfield, Kelly Clarkson etc. It typically has a lot more syncopation and varies which beat gets the emphasis during the verse. There is typically not a lot of space in between lines either. With Yeah-yeah's and Uh-huh's there is a non-stop quality.Then after a quick lift/prechorus the Chorus arrives with a great big punch on the one. BAM. "When No One Else Believes"....You've got:[Verse]line1(pause)line2(pause)line3 line 4The emphasis is always on beat one (even if the line doesn't start on the one).You could try to play with when the phrases start during the verse. i.e.--Try starting the entire lyric on beat three (for example) and string all those lines together. See where that gets you.Then drive that chorus home on the one.I don't think theres really anything in your lyrics that sounds dated. You've got some tired phrases that we all get stuck overusing (I'm guilty on my stuff as well). I think your general idea is solid and if you do some more digging you can find some fresh ways to say what you're saying (easier said than done, I'm in the same boat on most of my currently in-the-works tunes).My only other comment is that I'd like to hear more sectional contrast between the verse and chorus.Now for my disclaimer:I've yet to be forwarded, or submit anything I've written specifically for a listing in this genre, so take my advice with a grain of salt. I also recommend shaving your head.Quote:http://www.taximusic.com/hosting/home.p ... id=2572And here are the lyrics....feel free to rip them apart. When No One Else Believes Verse 1Everywhere around youSomeone's gonna doubt youAs you travel on that journeyTo points unknownIt's so easy to give upTo stay stuck in a hopeless rutBut if you stay the courseYou might make it homeChorus:Oh, you have to believeWhen no one else believesYou gotta have that visionWhen no one else can seeOh, you have to believeWhen no one else believesAnd you'll rise like the morning sunFloatin' the over the treesVerse 2Those hard knocks they can claim youAnd those critics, they can tame youWhen those goals you're reaching forAre so far awaySome will call you crazyWhen you start dream chasingListen to your heartNot what others sayRepeat chorus

[elser]

Hey this is fun, seems like a group write. First off, I think your voice is beautiful Chits, not as pitchy as you say, that's just self conceisness(how about my spelling). I agree with Squids on the direction, sort of Mariah, or as Steve says Natasha. Now here's my contribution if so considered; I think the verse and chorus kind of run together, my first inclination would be to create a key change between verse and chorus. A hook element could be created during the chorus, perhaps an instrumental hook or a backing vocals hook. I love the over all spirit and message of the tune, but I think it needs some craft to make it commercially viable.Hope that helps, Elser

[jchitty]

First let me give my very GRATEFUL thanks to y'all for chiming in. Thanks to Bill G., Dean, Squiddy, and Tim. I'm taking in your thoughts as we speak.....mulling over your suggestions. Steve had mentioned yesterday that we don't necessarily have to take this song in a pop R&B direction. We could go for the more mature market. I'm liking a lot of the comments about just keeping most of the lyrics and making it appeal to an older audience such as Dean or Bill suggested. Squids has also suggested that we start with the line, 'someone's gonna doubt you.' Good idea, Squiddy. We might could follow that with 'everywhere around you.' Just flip the lines...that could be a thought too. I'm also really liking Squid's suggestion about making this more gospel/inspirational sounding, maybe less R&B pop. And thanks, Tim for giving your thoughts if we do decide to go with the more youth oriented R&B market. You give us some really good food for thought. I think you and Elser have a point about there being more contrast between the verse and chorus. As far as the lyrics go, I have had concern over whether these phrases are overused. I know the word 'believe' is used in songs constantly.Bill, okay, I'll cut myself some slack on my voice.

[jchitty]

Quote:Hey this is fun, seems like a group write. First off, I think your voice is beautiful Chits, not as pitchy as you say, that's just self conceisness(how about my spelling). I agree with Squids on the direction, sort of Mariah, or as Steve says Natasha. Now here's my contribution if so considered; I think the verse and chorus kind of run together, my first inclination would be to create a key change between verse and chorus. A hook element could be created during the chorus, perhaps an instrumental hook or a backing vocals hook. I love the over all spirit and message of the tune, but I think it needs some craft to make it commercially viable.Hope that helps, ElserOh, Lord, I wouldn't classify my voice as 'beautiful' but your comments are still appreciated, Els. Thanks for your ideas on the verse and chorus key change.....I wondered if the melody had enough contrast there between the verse and the chorus.....I'll also think about the hook element you speak of.It's all good....all these ideas help us write a better song. You know, we are all turning into a little team of songwriters here.

[squids]

Quote:Quote:Hey this is fun, seems like a group write. First off, I think your voice is beautiful Chits, not as pitchy as you say, that's just self conceisness(how about my spelling). I agree with Squids on the direction, sort of Mariah, or as Steve says Natasha. Now here's my contribution if so considered; I think the verse and chorus kind of run together, my first inclination would be to create a key change between verse and chorus. A hook element could be created during the chorus, perhaps an instrumental hook or a backing vocals hook. I love the over all spirit and message of the tune, but I think it needs some craft to make it commercially viable.Hope that helps, ElserOh, Lord, I wouldn't classify my voice as 'beautiful' but your comments are still appreciated, Els. Thanks for your ideas on the verse and chorus key change.....I wondered if the melody had enough contrast there between the verse and the chorus.....I'll also think about the hook element you speak of.It's all good....all these ideas help us write a better song. You know, we are all turning into a little team of songwriters here. You can keep my cut, chits. And I think your voice is beautiful too. Unique!! But we've talked about that already, I won't nag ya. On this post.