Help with Horn Sections please

[dabresk]

I have submitted the following song twice and it was returned. "Funkalicious"http://www.taximusic.com/song.php?song_ ... am=trueThe first time was due to engineering issues, and I was able to fix that (infact the next time i submitted it they said it was well recordrd). But the following statement I need help with"Style-wise....the submission is flawless. However, the listing asked for tracks that weren't "obviously MIDI." The overall feel and direction of this music track are simply amazing....non stop energy! I don't know how you pulled the MIDI sax job off like you did! the only suggestion I have is...maybe a wave table synthesis driven patch would've been more appropriate. The fm synthesis patches might come off a bit synthetic and thin. Consider either recording real horns or purchasing/downloading an FM synthesis driven orchestral/brass band/ woodwinds combo. This might be more convincing...as your interpretation was "dead on." In my opinion, the only thing that made it extremely obvious was the quality of the patch used.Now, where I live, I can't get a horn section, so THATS out. But, in this case, I used sampled horn sections (a combination of Reason and EWQLS). When they speak of "FM synthesis driven orchestral/brass band/ woodwinds combo", what would they be talking about. Can someone please give me some examples please? I don't think they mean a DX7.......Your suggestions would be greatly appreciated!ThanksBresky

[ibanez468]

dabresk,Don't feel bad. You're not alone. I used horns from Reason too, and got a return. Screener said that was the only thing that held the piece back. "Consider recording with live horns." How many people can get a hold of live horns? Not everybody. What really kills me though, is I recorded each instrument separately, with no quantization, separated each one in the mix nicely. Aaaargghhh!!!! What frustration! I'm listening to your piece. I have that same sax sample too! EXCELLENT JOB!!!I'm a little confused on what screener is saying there. S/He suggests the FM synthesis patches come off a bit synthetic and thin and a wavetable synthesis driven patch would have been more appropriate, but then says, "Consider either recording real horns or purchasing/downloading an FM synthesis driven orchestral/brass band/ woodwinds combo". I thought s/he just said that a wavetable synthesis driven patch would have been more appropriate! Dude, ya' got me! I don't know. I'm probably reading into it all wrong, because your frustration is mine as well. I feel ya' all the way from Michigan. Sounds like maybe s/he is refering to the rest of your horn section. That's what killed me. The rest of your horn section doesn't sound bad to me. I think it's the high registered notes of the brass section that kinda' give it away. Probably better off staying in the mid to low registers. It's like if your MIDI brass section hits a high note, it's the kiss of death. Here comes the big [R]. You did an incredible job though, FWIW. ibanez468

[mazz]

I think the piece sounds very good. There's a bit too much reverb overall for my taste but that's just me.I don't have the guts to attempt a MIDI sax solo so hat's off to you on that one! I think the effects are appropriate on the sax for the David Sanborn vibe you have going.As far as the horns go, I'm not hearing what the screener is hearing. Yeah, you could get better horns but you did it right by playing to the strengths of the libraries by not making them do much more than short shots mixed in the right proportions.The only thing I can say is maybe look in to a pop horn section library like First Call Horns or Phantom Horns (check Sonomic.com for a download on that last one). Then you could blend those in to fatten things up.You might post in the Screener Shoutouts section of the forum and ask for clarification or call in and see if the screener can look at their critique again and give more specifics. I've never done this but I'd be curious to find out how it goes if you go that route.Good job overall, keep submitting this one!Mazz

[ibanez468]

Hey dabresk!Just loaded First Call Horns onto my computer, and launched the standalone application. I'm just using my mouse to hit the keys and listening to the sounds. These brass samples sound sweeeet. Much more authentic than the ones in Reason. If these don't convince a screener (depending on how well they're programmed of course) nothin' will. I can definitely see better days ahead... at least where my brass section is concerned. This is a must buy! Just thought I'd let ya' know. ibanez468

[sgs4u]

NICE going!Quote:Hey dabresk!Just loaded First Call Horns onto my computer... I can definitely see better days ahead... ...thought I'd let ya'know. ibanez468

[matto]

BreskyI would go out on a limb here and say that if the sax solo was a real sax, this would've been forwarded. Even if nothing else was changed.I think it might also have been forwarded if the listing didn't specifically say "no obviously midi generated tracks".I think you've got a really good midi sax solo there...as far as midi sax solos go. But it doesn't sound real. Like mazz, I would not even attempt doing a sax solo with midi, except maybe if I had Fable Sounds BBB.As far as the suggestion to download an "FM synthesis driven orchestral/brass band/ woodwinds combo", I think that must be a typo. I certainly have never heard of any FM synthesis driven convincing solo sax or hornsection. I'm wondering if he meant PM (as in physical modeling)...although I don't think I would attempt doing a sax solo with PM either.I'd either use some opther instrument for the melody or hire a real player. If there aren't any in your area, perhaps a web based collab would work.mattoBtw what are you doing stealing my song titles...

[sgs4u]

Hey, isn't FM synthesis old DX7 technology? I didn't want to stick my neck out too far on that, but it must be a typo. Trying to do a sax solo with one of those kooky breath controllers reminded me of some of the more stupid looking inventions we keyboardists have had to put up with.Quote:BreskyI would go out on a limb here and say that if the sax solo was a real sax, this would've been forwarded. Even if nothing else was changed.I think it might also have been forwarded if the listing didn't specifically say "no obviously midi generated tracks".I think you've got a really good midi sax solo there...as far as midi sax solos go. But it doesn't sound real. Like mazz, I would not even attempt doing a sax solo with midi, except maybe if I had Fable Sounds BBB.As far as the suggestion to download an "FM synthesis driven orchestral/brass band/ woodwinds combo", I think that must be a typo. I certainly have never heard of any FM synthesis driven convincing solo sax or hornsection. I'm wondering if he meant PM (as in physical modeling)...although I don't think I would attempt doing a sax solo with PM either.I'd either use some opther instrument for the melody or hire a real player. If there aren't any in your area, perhaps a web based collab would work.mattoBtw what are you doing stealing my song titles...

[ernstinen]

Great track, Bresky!As a (one-time) sax player who's played in and arranged for a lot of horn bands, I'd say that's a pretty good sax solo. --- One thing that doesn't sound "real" to me are the sixteenth notes on the 7th at the start of the melody. The tonguing doesn't sound quite right. When the sax plays sixteenth notes that aren't on the same pitch, it sounds more realistic.I've got a friend that just had drum tracks layed down on his demos via the internet, so it's doable. The engineer sent the drummer an mp3 with a click track of the song, and somehow they got the drummer to do the track with that. How it ended up back in the studio with a quality recording (not being an mp3 file) I'm not sure. Matto, do you know how that would be done?Anyway, good work!BTW, where in the U.P. are you? My dad grew up near Iron Mountain --- been up there many times. I'll bet it's pretty chilly right about now! Ern

[matto]

Quote:How it ended up back in the studio with a quality recording (not being an mp3 file) I'm not sure. Matto, do you know how that would be done?You could use something like the "yousendit" service to transfer large (wav) files, so it's definitely doable. Sax would actually be a lot easier than drums, since presumably it would obly be one or two tracks.

[mazz]

I agree, it was probably a typo and they probably meant PM (physical modeling). I think mixing a PM instrument in with a sampled section might be a better choice but I still wouldn't use it as a solo instrument, at this stage of technology anyway. (on my funk track I actually doubled the lead trumpet with the synth lead sound and with a little pitchbend it added a nice "live" feel to the part. It's mixed pretty low on purpose.)I've seen articles on internet based session musicians and some pretty big name players with big name credits are doing it in their home studios.I've seen horn players and even horn sections advertising their services. If you know how to write charts, I bet most of these guys could sight read it and give you two or three great takes in an hour session. I think a simple Google search would give you lots of options.I'd be willing to bet that most of these people have ftp sites and give you the ability to upload a mix to them and then download their tracks (after the Paypal has cleared!). It's pretty easy these days to do this and if you have a fast internet connection, it's a no-brainer.If you explore these options, it would be interesting to hear how much they charge, etc.Mazz