Is "Good Enough" Good Enough?

[wta]

I think his point is and my point is, if the intro and first few lines are lacking the rest is 99% of the time going to be lacking. I'd ask the question, "What are you going to do with a song that chorus is good but the rest is lacking?" That's alot like says "she's good looking" but has no personality... If you catch my drift...

[mojobone]

Nope. I can tell in thirty seconds or less, almost always, if a song's gonna be something I'll like enough to want to hear again, and almost everybody can do this; it happens all the time. (jes' not in Peer To Peer, I take a cue from Taxi's screeners and listen all the way through, usually more than once. In other words, I treat it like I'm being paid to consult)It's very common for a man to pass a woman on the street and a little mental calculation occurs with every female he encounters. (I hear that women do this, too, but the math's a little different) A lot of little "deal-breaker" decisions happen long before "hello". (I don't care for that shade of bottled hair color, butt's too wide, etc.)Same goes for songs; if the first thing I hear is a poorly-recorded drum flourish, followed by thirty five seconds of intro consisting of the same two chords repeated over four bars -guess what? I don't expect things to 'get better' from there.

[BraveNote]

Well said Mojo."but the quality of your product is directly proportional to the probability of your success."I respectfully disagree with this and though I sounded somewhat "cold", I'm not speaking for everyone here and my experiences with "the suits" or the business guys or A&R administrators or whatever you want to call them are just that. My own. Look. Theres a bundle of fantastic songs and instrumental music of all genres out here in the global universe. All I'm trying to get across is, they'll have you [meaning you're separate from them in more ways than being a musician] dancing on the head of a pin if they could. How remarkable it is for a band to draw attention to them night after night, week after week, month after month and even decade after decade with each member having killer chops and a fan club that could fill the Rose Bowl. Please pay careful attention to what I'm saying. It's precisely this arrogant stance the "suits" are taking with the pompous attitude of greater knowledge of what the people want verses what the working artist or band feels the people want that I have contention with and have for many years. Forging relationships with people in the business is an absolute prerequisite for achieving your goals and hopefully realizing your dreams and that's not what I'm trying to point out. Please forgive me if I led you to believe otherwise. It's understood that we're all parts in this awesome mechanism of the music industry. I'd just like to lube the working parts a little better so those less fortunate than myself can have the same and greater opportunities for getting heard and possibly signed.I don't believe that even a strong working band that draws regular large audiences qualifies for a contract on that criteria alone even though the energy levels are stratospheric, recording the music can display a totally unexpected and unpredicted performance. There's a whole different universe of craftsmanship and articulation discovered in studio conditions that cannot be duplicated live and to be fair, this can work the other way around and that brings me right back to my initial point of suits being pompous and ego-combative toward the artist.So, you're only "good enough" if you can sell-out every night? LOL!!

[hummingbird]

Are we comparing apples to oranges? Having a commercially viable product (the artist) that is already making money is a prerequisite to getting a deal from any label who is going to be investing thousands in the hopes of making it back in spades. And they will want a pretty tight control over what you do and how you do it.Finding your niche audience and building your fan base by being who you are and connecting with them... one would hope this would be part of the same process.... however... that may or may not translate into dollar signs for the label reps.Depends what you want.Like, if I want to write music for film/tv, and my creative inspiration comes from pounding my coffee table with a rubber hammer in my soundproof recording studio... I may hold tight to my right to be 'artistic' and 'original' and even have some (deaf) fans, but I doubt I'll get many deals... lol(PS - that last was meant to be a joke)

[BraveNote]

Thanks for responding Hummingbird."And they will want a pretty tight control over what you do and how you do it."Here's where you're going down the slippery slope. The artist compromises nothing. When the artist forfeits the total control of his work, he's shortchanging the fan base. It's non-negotiable. You have forfeited the deepest essence of why you've become an artist in the first place. And for me, it's touching the individual spiritually and emotionally. The music came first IMHO. Never put the cart before the horse. Apples to apples.

[ottlukk]

Hey Mojo: There's more than two chords? This explains a lot, when I stop to think about it . . .

[coachdebra]

Quote:Are we comparing apples to oranges?Having a commercially viable product (the artist) that is already making money is a prerequisite to getting a deal from any label who is going to be investing thousands in the hopes of making it back in spades. And they will want a pretty tight control over what you do and how you do it.Finding your niche audience and building your fan base by being who you are and connecting with them... one would hope this would be part of the same process.... however... that may or may not translate into dollar signs for the label reps.Depends what you want.Like, if I want to write music for film/tv, and my creative inspiration comes from pounding my coffee table with a rubber hammer in my soundproof recording studio... I may hold tight to my right to be 'artistic' and 'original' and even have some (deaf) fans, but I doubt I'll get many deals... lol(PS - that last was meant to be a joke)Posted by pb@KeyStoneWerx on Today at 6:45pmThanks for responding Hummingbird."And they will want a pretty tight control over what you do and how you do it."Here's where you're going down the slippery slope. The artist compromises nothing. When the artist forfeits the total control of his work, he's shortchanging the fan base. It's non-negotiable. You have forfeited the deepest essence of why you've become an artist in the first place. And for me, it's touching the individual spiritually and emotionally. The music came first IMHO. Never put the cart before the horse. Apples to apples.I think what Vikki is saying isn't business first, artistry second or vice versa (and please correct me if I'm wrong V). The point is if you don't have your business chops then no matter how good your music chops are, it probably won't be heard by many people. It's not one or the other.It has to be both!And as far as the artist compromising or forfeiting - you have every right to be true blue to your artistic integrity. But if you're not also operating as a business, building your business, using sound foundational business principles - your artistic integrity will never pay the bills.Your Coach,DebraPS - And for my own opinion - if the second line of the melody in the verse is an exact replica of the first line - my finger's hovering over the skip button and if the third line is yet another repeat or even mostly the same, I'm gone. I get bored easily - and repetition needs to be used for effect as a focus of attention - in very limited places. I mean it should be the icing on the cake - who wants a whole piece of icing with no cake!

[mojobone]

There's certainly more to the 'success' equation than the quality of the musical work-there's also the willingness to do all the promotional stuff that's necessary to get the work heard, so that it may have a chance to succeed. It doesn't matter how big a pumpkin you can grow, 'til you have a large enough wagon to haul it to market.

[hummingbird]

Aug 31, 2009, 6:45pm, pb wrote:Thanks for responding Hummingbird."And they will want a pretty tight control over what you do and how you do it."Here's where you're going down the slippery slope. The artist compromises nothing. When the artist forfeits the total control of his work, he's shortchanging the fan base. It's non-negotiable. You have forfeited the deepest essence of why you've become an artist in the first place. And for me, it's touching the individual spiritually and emotionally. The music came first IMHO. Never put the cart before the horse. Apples to apples.Yeah, you're preaching to the choir anyhow, cause I've always been a rebel in sheep's clothing Ideals are little harder to hold on to, when your entire band, and their families; your manger, and their families; your road crew, and their families; and your family, plus your label are all counting on you to stay on the charts, sell out concerts and cover all the expenses and then some. The suits at the label are backing you because they believe in you, believe that you will bring a good return on their investment, and they're putting their jobs on the line for you. I was told they would even choose what I could wear, never mind what I could sing, who I could date, etc.That kind of pressure would pretty much kill my creativity and my spirit, which is why I chose never to go there.

[BraveNote]

Yeah, I guess we're on the same page of the hymn book HB. Just different published years. Much has changed since the 50,s, 60;s, 70's, 80's 90's, and the year 2000. Each decade blesses us with a preview of the next-which makes it easier to predict what kinds of tactics big corporate business will be applying on it's current subjects. "And as far as the artist compromising or forfeiting - you have every right to be true blue to your artistic integrity. But if you're not also operating as a business, building your business, using sound foundational business principles - your artistic integrity will never pay the bills."Yes. This sounds good. You have to work to support your family. They never considered using their family to pay their bills. They went off and worked/served others so they could practice and perform their craft for everyone who wanted to see and hear it. And there were many back then and there are many today who appreciate the kind of mortal sacrifices they made to bring total pleasure to their audiences. In other words, you still need to support your Passions for the craft/your music in some way like you support your family. But by no means should you compromise your artistic values less, you'll be left with none or, some very watered down left behind in a pool of mediocrity. I mean c'mon!!! do you actually believe that holding the music corporates up to higher standards (kowtowing to their whims and prejudices) for making aesthetic contributions via the arts (music in this case) is helping you or I to produce a higher level art form? This is serious stuff man. It's insidious how the business has mirrored the ways of big banks, insurance, and other huge corporate institutions while using you to gain control over your catalog past, present and future. I don't know what you're talking about when you say business chops. Mine are musical so, the time I invested in the music business was invested in the business of writing music and all that relates to it. I'm not going to pretend I have knowledge of the slick maneuvers and tactics necessary for selling products, soap, news papers etc...etc... I'm not in the business of selling anything. I'm in the business of composing, writing, engineering and producing fine and quality music. Always was, am now, and most likely always will be. It's what I profess and know the best. I've seen the game played. Unfortunately, I've also seen more losers in the game who were musicians who "gave-in" to the scoundrels who looked and behaved like the Wizard Of Oz. I've also seen the game won by artists who held true to their artistic principals who continued to study, explore new possibilities, spend hours and hours per day at their craft (out of the love for it. Not because of a promise of big earnings from a Maj. RC.) and continued believing in what they were doing was true and right for the society on the whole. Not just for some quick money making way that's clever and ideal ridden as fashionable for the moment, the month or the year. (BTW, what is "dated" material?) It's a big old museum as I see it today. I'm sorry to see so many good kids get caught up in it's snares. (no pun intended) I mean, the strategies, lies and masking that has to occur to break a fresh, young, new talent or a seasoned, skillful, music writer/composer is at best hypocritical and malevolent.However, take heart. Those who profess to have obtained precious information on what's needed in our industry in terms of the business, have been denied themselves, the truth about rock star status. Beware that, when you think you're behaving properly in your music business, crossing all your T's and dotting all your i's, they over look your nephew for an act 2.5 years younger. I believe that competition bastardizes inspired creativity. The very thing the RC wants and needs the most is what they're oppressing. Welcome to 2010 almost.