Jacqueline takes Dave to "Punkville"

[davewalton]

Quote:Quote:I suspect this might be close to "Alternative". If that describes Green Day and this track is similar in sound to "Basket Case", maybe Alternative is a better genre description for the moment. Just feeling my way through. I would agree with it sounding more alternative than punk, Dave. I take it you're committed to punk? Go for it, dude!That helps with defining some basic concepts in my mind. Personally I want it to evolve into whatever will make it to be the most useful (i.e. $$$$), be it Punk, Alternative, or whatever. I would think that Alternative is a wider avenue and more contemporary than Punk but everything has its use and I'm all for anything that's useful. My only goal is avoid something that straddles two or more genres and can't really be identified. Mostly I think I'm going to follow Jacqueline's lead on this, maybe learn a little something in the process.

[davewalton]

Quote:I wouldn't call Green Day punk, but it has some punk influences. There are various references out there and Wikipedia is one you can use to get some feedback on a band's background and classifications. Here's a sample for Green DayIt's interesting that the article starts like this:"Nevertheless, its major label debut Dookie became a breakout success in 1994 and eventually sold over 10 million copies in the U.S. alone.[3] As a result, Green Day was widely credited, along with fellow California punk bands The Offspring and Rancid, with reviving mainstream interest in and popularizing punk rock in the United States"And then at the same time goes on to say this:"One of the more contentious issues is genre labeling. In reaction to both the style of music and the background of the band, many fans and musicians have taken heavy objection to the usage of the term "punk" when applied to Green Day. "So they're either widely credited for reviving Punk Rock or they're not at all a part of the Punk Rock scene, depending on who you talk to. That certainly clarifies things.

[squidlips]

If we get into classifications (as the industry applies them), this thread will never end. I think the Wikipedia explanation is a classic case of envy/adoration, myself......there're always going to be people who want to tear a band down beyond their talent and people who want to elevate them beyond their actual abilities. Somewhere in the middle lies the truth, if there's any to be found. While the marketing gurus carve up music to make it easier for them to hit their demographics, they clutter the landscape for musicians by brainwashing the public into deciding things before even giving the band a chance. Now poor Dave is trying to narrow a perfectly nice song into one genre and is having to sacrifice to do it, because it has to fall into such a tiny genre for it to feed the dog. Meantime, lots of new bands nowadays are so focused on a small area of expertise and foregoing the broad expanse of experience we had growing up, where bands knew quite a lot about blues, rock, pop, etc, and fused them together to make something new. Our musical heritage is exiting the building while marketers herd our listeners into smaller groups every day. Don't get me started on this (ack!). We should be able to place ourselves on a do-not-genre-fy list, like the do-not-call one for other industry marketers.

[sgs4u]

Quote:My only goal is avoid something that straddles two or more genres and can't really be identified. Mostly I think I'm going to follow Jacqueline's lead on this, maybe learn a little something in the process. I always think the singer's vibe is the only thing that matters, in terms of how to produce the "band." Jacqueline's voice might be all the direction you need. Is Green Day punk? Well, maybe pop punk. The anti-christ probably according to J Rotten and Sid Vicious... It's always so weird to me, the dichotomy between producing what is best for the song or singer, vs what is great for a listing. Sometimes they seem to be diametrically opposed. But you Dave, are a master. Your confidence and open-mindedness will get you to the right sound treaments very quickly.

[davewalton]

Quote:Now poor Dave is trying to narrow a perfectly nice song into one genre and is having to sacrifice to do it, because it has to fall into such a tiny genre for it to feed the dog. How long has your "Artists make terrible slaves" slogan been there? I LOVE it... I've never make a good "employee" and even outside of music, stayed self-employed for probably 80% of the time.Get a t-shirt made at http://www.uberprints.com/. My wife had a t-shirt made for me as a surprise before the Rally for around $20 with my "Composing is better than decomposing" slogan.Now back to our regular programming. The "What Makes A Song Great" thread is pretty interesting. Tying that into this, it's the combination of a little creative freedom, maybe stepping outside the box a little, and crafting it into something useful with the help of someone who knows more about this than I do that makes it really satisfying.The little "write from the heart, edit for commercial success" phrase is something I'm perfectly content with. How this gets "edited" for commercial success remains to be seen... maybe it turns into a totally ragged, bang your head against the wall Punker tune or maybe a more polished Alternative. Either way I'm outside my element and kind of enjoying the musical equivalent of visiting a new country and learning new things.

[squidlips]

Quote:The little "write from the heart, edit for commercial success" phrase is something I'm perfectly content with. Me too. It's all good. As long as we can still push the envelope (I'm not pushing hard enough, I can tell), that's enough for me. And thanks for the site, I just ordered a tank top. Whee! Oh, and I make a terrible slave too. Twins!! I've been self-employed most of my life and now getting a degree so I can gleefully continue that.

[davewalton]

Quote:One thing to consider: when somebody is looking for GERMAN punk, they are not likely to care that much if it's true punk, punk rock, pop punk or alternative/punk. I think they'd be pretty happy as long as it sounds somewhat "punky" (and yours definitely does) and is in German.If you were to write an English punk song, you'd have to be more concerned with subgenres I suppose.And of course, your best bet would be to listen to GERMAN punk bands for inspiration, not English ones.mattoThe listing was Punk Rock with German vocals. I don't really know what that means but we missed the deadline so for that purpose the song is a current orphan (sniff, sniff). I think an English version is the next basic step before deciding on how to produce it from there. This whole (fascinating) discussion has got me thinking about the definition of "producing" or "production". Normally for me, writing, recording, production, it's all wrapped up into one thing and I don't even think about. But this is different for me. This is more like what Casey does and probably a lot of others, performing and non-performing songswriters alike. The song has been written, now the question is how to produce it to bring it to its maximum potential. Hand it off to Faith Hill's producer? Probably not. This is one of those times though where I think that me being an observer or at least not taking the lead in the production of this is going to be the best way to go.

[davewalton]

Quote:I respectfully disagree... Dave's song is pure rock mainly because of the drums. German punk has punk drum patterns not rock ones. So it's not a big deal if he listen to German or English punk bands. Music-wise...Beside the attitude (lyric-wise) in punk the driven none palm muted power chords on guitar and the punk style drums would make Dave's song punk anyway. His singer does the rest in German. Bands like e.g. "Die Aerzte" and "Die toten Hosen" do use more or less the same drum patterns as English/American bands. Dave's drum arrangement needs a shift into punk drums. Currently Dave's song is a solid ball of rock.I'm taking his advice on this because his name is "Gunter". That's a good observation and the current recording is a function of a lack of good drum tools for this particular application. I've got tons of drums/percussion for cinematic and electronica but it actually boiled down to settling for the closest thing I had... one single selection from "Stormdrum" which has some regular drums as kind of a side attraction. I guess it gets back to "production". It's been written, recorded but not yet produced. A producer in this genre would probably say what you're saying and would produce the track accordingly ("drums... OUT! New drummer!" in addition to maybe a few other things). Believe it or not, I'm learning a LOT out of this and I can't thank everyone enough.

[squidlips]

well, if it was me and I was opting out of producing because someone else would get it there better, I'd find the person who would likely lead it to the water fastest and get it to drink, someone versed in that genre. I think you've got the right girl for the job, myself.It's so sad to think of our "missed the listing" songs as orphans. More like temporarily homeless?

[matto]

Quote:Quote:One thing to consider: when somebody is looking for GERMAN punk, they are not likely to care that much if it's true punk, punk rock, pop punk or alternative/punk. I think they'd be pretty happy as long as it sounds somewhat "punky" (and yours definitely does) and is in German.If you were to write an English punk song, you'd have to be more concerned with subgenres I suppose.And of course, your best bet would be to listen to GERMAN punk bands for inspiration, not English ones.mattoI respectfully disagree... Dave's song is pure rock mainly because of the drums. German punk has punk drum patterns not rock ones. So it's not a big deal if he listen to German or English punk bands. Music-wise...Beside the attitude (lyric-wise) in punk the driven power chords on guitar and the punk style drums would make Dave's song punk anyway. His singer does the rest in German. Bands like e.g. "Die Aerzte" and "Die toten Hosen" do use more or less the same drum patterns as English/American bands. Dave's drum arrangement needs a shift into punk drums. Currently Dave's song is a solid ball of rock.I think you misunderstood what I was saying. The reason I said to listen to German punk is because those bands (Aerzte, Toten Hosen) have a unique vibe and sound to them despite using the same drum patterns and guitar parts as their English speaking counterparts.Since any movie or tv show looking for German punk is likely to have one of those bands temped in, the closer you match the "vibe" and spirit of those bands, the better your chances of getting the placement.I'm not disagreeing with you at all about the drums, just reminding everybody that music supervisors, directors and producers are typically NOT musicians. To them, it would be all about the right vibe. And IMHO an agressive, snotty lead vocal sung by a native German speaker is gonna be more important to nailing that "punk vibe" for them than the "correct" drumbeat.At least that's been my experience dealing with these folks...