Kontakt and Pro Tools

[ragani]

Here's a question for Mac users-- I purchased East West RA last year when I thought they were discontinuing it (before they came with their new player included). I was new and green when I was updating my studio, and I didn't know anything about needing a player to run sample software. So it turns out that the Intel Mac 8-core that I have allegedly (per Kontakt's information) doesn't work with Kontakt players. Kontakt did tell me that thei software would work just fine with Pro Tools and my new system, but after I purchased it, I'm finding that wasn't so true... Anyway, oddly enough, I can get Kontakt to run just fine as a stand-alone (even though I've been told it's not supposed to be able to do this with my Intel Mac computer!). However, it does not (as I now know) plug into my Pro Tools at all, and I'm wanting to know if any of you Mac users may know of a way (any way?) to capture and record sounds from a stand alone that I could later import into a Pro Tools session. I tried GarageBand, but not luck. I'd like to record from the Kontakt stand-alone, but I don't know if that's even possible. I can hear the sounds, and it's like the dangling carrot, but I can't figure out how to record them somehow. Any ideas? Am I just dreaming?I realize I'll just have to spring for the new EW RA soon enough-- only thing is, if I can get a new Kontakt player (which they promise WILL run on Intel Macs as a Pro Tools plug in-- we'll see ) to record somehow on my computer, I'll also be able to use the Bella Media flute software (which I also bought last fall when I was young and green and didn't realize it needed something to run on! Sheesh.)Lost in Kontakt land...Raags

[partyofone]

Raags,One thing you could do is use the monitoring channel of your audio hardware to record the signal from Kontakt in real time. It should have some kind of monitor channel in your virtual mixer although not sure how proprietary Digi hardware works.Other option is something like this virtual audio cable that streams audio between apps in real time...http://software.muzychenko.net/eng/vac. ... 66.htmlHTH

[ragani]

Hi Patrick,I'll have to check into the idea of the monitoring channel of my audio hardware-- wherever that may be, I have no idea! But I'll find out! Thanks!Yeah, the software idea is good, but I use a Mac for the music stuff, so they won't work for me.Any Mac (Intel) and Pro Tools users out there who might know a way to do this?Thanks again,Raags

[crs7string]

Raags,I think you are referring to two different products. Kontakt Player is the platform for RA. This was the platform for Gold and Silver etc. before East West developed PLAY. The player is closed architecture and will only play the sounds in RA. You should not have to upgrade to PLAY version to get this functional. (I'm still using the Kontact Player version)Kontakt 3 is open architecture and this is what you need to play the Bela Media sounds. RA sounds will open in Kontakt 3 and you have more options to manipulate the sounds. (more effects, filters etc.)There are many, many sounds that use Kontakt 3 as the chassis to play them. Kontakt also comes with a very good library of sounds as well.Do you have Kontakt 3 in addition to RA?In terms of using the program in Pro Tools, I'm assuming that just like any other DAW, there is a procedure to "wire' any VST instrument into the program. I don't work with Pro Tools so I don't know how RTAS vs. VST instruments work differently.I did go to Native Instruments site and after a very brief search did not see any thing that would indicate their products would not work with a Mac 8 core or any issues with an Intel mac.Have you tried to post on their tech support part of their site?HTH Chuck

[ragani]

Hi Chuck,You're so sweet to lend a hand here! I've learned a lot since last fall about the Mac/PC differences, Pro Tools compatibilities, and especially the use of plug-in's and virtual instruments. I still have a lot to learn with samplers, as I don't fully understand how to use them yet (Pro Tools comes with one too). I also didn't find anything on NI's site about Intel incompatibilities, so I wrote to them and their tech support told me that it would all work just fine for my system. After the purchase, however, I wrote to them with the problems I was having, and they confirmed that indeed Kontakt will not work with Pro Tools on the Intel Mac Pro's. So I'm stuck. The choices are to either wait until they come up with the next Kontakt upgrade and make another purchase from them (due out after Jan '09 they told me-- so I guess that means any day), and hope that their Digidesign/Intel problems are resolved-- or, upgrade to the new RA software from EW so I'll have their Play edition and don't need to work with NI anymore. I'm leaning toward going with EW, as they have a good reputation among Digidesign users. Indeed, I have often confused the Kontakt Player with the Kontakt 3 full software. I've have learned that Bella Media requires Kontakt 3, and not the Kontakt player, which was all I had. I'm going to wait a little longer before I make any more purchases, and make sure I know what I'm doing this time. I'll ask around the Pro Tools colleagues that I have and make sure I've got the inside scoop on things too. Expensive learning mistakes in the music business! But in the meantime, I'm loving all my new studio upgrades. I'm going to try micing through my monitors to get at least a few of the sounds for now, maybe with some funky effects. It's the only clever way I could find to make use of some of the sounds until I take the next step.Thanks again, Chuck! Even though we're on two difference platforms, it's fun to go see all the software you use (and sometimes I can even find one that will work with Mac and Pro Tools!). Raags

[mazz]

Raags: Kontakt player 1 was never updated to run on Intel Macs. They did come out with a newer version (Kontakt player 2 or something) which apparently is Intel compatible. I have a friend that uses Pro Tools on an 8 core Mac and he tells me that Kontakt won't run in Pro Tools right now but he has downloaded a beta version of Kontakt 3 (3.5 beta) and it apparently is working in Pro Tools. But you have to own the Kontakt 3 software to download it.There might be a work around though: http://www.cycling74.com/products/soundflowerIf you use this little application, you can route MIDI and audio from one application to another. This might allow you to run Kontakt stand alone outside of Pro Tools and then use Soundflower to send it MIDI and have it send audio back to Pro Tools. You have to configure it in the Core Audio setup, which isn't as bad as it sounds. It might just work.Pro Tools is the industry standard but Digidesign is pretty slow to adopt outside software. Pro Tools 8 finally brings Pro Tools in to the modern age with tools that composers using Logic and Digital Performer have had for many years. There are lots of folks that use other DAWs for composing and then do the mix in Pro Tools, just because other DAWs are way more set up for composing and Pro Tools was more audio oriented (until version 8, anyway).Once Kontakt version 3.5 comes out, it might be a good investment anyway since, as Chuck says, there's tons of great third party libraries that run inside of it. Since it's not clear if they will update the Player to be compatible with Pro Tools (or if it's on Digidesign's side, don't hold your breath), it might be a must-do anyway. It does come with some very good sounds in it's library and they do offer a cross-grade option from the player so you do get some break on the price.Hope this helps,Mazz

[allends]

Apr 26, 2009, 7:34am, mazz wrote:There might be a work around though: http://www.cycling74.com/products/soundflowerIf you use this little application, you can route MIDI and audio from one application to another. This might allow you to run Kontakt stand alone outside of Pro Tools and then use Soundflower to send it MIDI and have it send audio back to Pro Tools.Mazz,That's what I was thinking but I'm not a Mac user so I waited to hear a Mac user mention it. I first heard about it by reading articles and watching videos by Peter Alexander in which he recommends on a Mac running some virtual instruments in stand alone mode and routing them using Soundflower to the sequencer. I think he was talking about RAM limitations with Logic. Regardless... it might be what our friend Raags is asking about.Good luck Raags!Allen

[ragani]

Hey, Mazz-- thanks for all the tips and ideas. I had heard of soundflower-- I think I first heard about it on the DUC boards, or Gear Slutz... Anyway, I tried another similar program and got a little (actually, more than a little!) lost in the pages of detailed use instructions. Couldn't figure out how to run it. So maybe I'll try again with soundflower. Apr 26, 2009, 7:34am, mazz wrote:Once Kontakt version 3.5 comes out, it might be a good investment anyway since, as Chuck says, there's tons of great third party libraries that run inside of it. Since it's not clear if they will update the Player to be compatible with Pro Tools (or if it's on Digidesign's side, don't hold your breath), it might be a must-do anyway. It does come with some very good sounds in it's library and they do offer a cross-grade option from the player so you do get some break on the price.So if I get Kontakt, and it's not compatible with Pro Tools, how would I record tracks? Would I need to get another DAW? I'm starting to understand some of this, though I haven't used a player yet as such. And what's the difference between Kontakt and Kompakt?Thanks again for all your helpful tips! I might have to invest a little more to make use of my EWRA, but it will be worth it in the long run! Raags

[mazz]

As far as I know, Kontakt 3.5 is working in Pro Tools but it's still in Beta and I would let the brave souls out there work out the kinks and wait for the official release.The difference between Kontakt and Kompat is that Kompakt is kaput and was replaced by Kontakt Player 2. Kompakt is not compatible with Intel Mac but I believe Kontakt Player 2 is. NI may have a crossgrade path from Kompakt to Kontakt Player 2.I do think that Play is working in ProTools, though, and EW has released RA as a Play library now. The Play "player" isn't as flexible as the full version of Kontakt but I'm OK with that, it works fine for me with the basic editing. Sometimes too much flexibility is a hindrance, IMO. You might consider upgrading to the Play version of RA.The basics of Soundflower are that you install it and then it shows up as inputs and outputs in both ProTools and whatever audio application you're running outside of ProTools. Then it's a matter of "patching" those inputs and outputs together. Conceptually, it's just like hooking up a patchbay in the "real" world. If you draw it out first, you might have an easier time with it. You have to send MIDI out of ProTools in to the "outside" application and you have to send audio from the "outside" application back in to ProTools. You would send it back in to ProTools just as if it were a microphone or a hardware synth, except that it's coming from inside the computer instead of through your hardware interface.You can do it!! If you can hook up your studio, you can hook up the software!! Cheers!Mazz

[crs7string]

Apr 29, 2009, 2:34pm, mazz wrote:As far as I know, Kontakt 3.5 is working in Pro Tools but it's still in Beta and I would let the brave souls out there work out the kinks and wait for the official release.The difference between Kontakt and Kompat is that Kompakt is kaput and was replaced by Kontakt Player 2. Kompakt is not compatible with Intel Mac but I believe Kontakt Player 2 is. NI may have a crossgrade path from Kompakt to Kontakt Player 2.I do think that Play is working in ProTools, though, and EW has released RA as a Play library now. The Play "player" isn't as flexible as the full version of Kontakt but I'm OK with that, it works fine for me with the basic editing. Sometimes too much flexibility is a hindrance, IMO. You might consider upgrading to the Play version of RA.The basics of Soundflower are that you install it and then it shows up as inputs and outputs in both ProTools and whatever audio application you're running outside of ProTools. Then it's a matter of "patching" those inputs and outputs together. Conceptually, it's just like hooking up a patchbay in the "real" world. If you draw it out first, you might have an easier time with it. You have to send MIDI out of ProTools in to the "outside" application and you have to send audio from the "outside" application back in to ProTools. You would send it back in to ProTools just as if it were a microphone or a hardware synth, except that it's coming from inside the computer instead of through your hardware interface.You can do it!! If you can hook up your studio, you can hook up the software!! Cheers!MazzMazz,I don't think RA would work with Kontakt Player 2. Raags options are to update to the PLAY engine or add Kontakt 3.5 when it seems to be functional. (having lived thru Kontakt 1 to Kontakt 2 to Kontakt 3, it seems it take several .01 and .02.2 updates from NI to be working properly)Also, Raags, upon Matto's recommendation, bought Bela Media's ethnic flute library. She currently has no way to use that library. Kontakt 3 would allow her to use both RA and Bela Media libraries in addition to all of the other libraries compatible with Kontakt.Just a few more thoughts to muddy Raags water. Chuck