Modes/Improvisation

[mojobone]

@ Geo: Like a lot of things that are associated with music and theory, modes are not as complicated as they seem; it's the terminology that makes it sound like rocket science. The first hurdle, for me, was understanding the implications of the relative minor; that by learning one scale, I already knew almost a dozen more: if you know and can comprehend the major scale, the ol' "do re mi fa so la ti do", you know everything there is to know about both chords and scales. Counterintuitive, yes, but also a fact. Maybe someday ain't far off, all that's required is a small adjustment in how you think about where the notes should go.

[mazz]

Jul 19, 2008, 7:37pm, stephen wrote:Don't get me wrong, I'm was just pondering the possibilities of the substitution and Modal Interchange (borrowing from the other diatonic scales minor etc). I'm just saying that you can have a V7/V in the key of C this chord would be D7. This chord would receive a Mixolydian mode as it is a dominant chord even thought it does not belong to the key of C major. The chord associated with this would be a straight D7 chord. However a V7/II in C major would be A7 and the scale associated with this is a Mixolydian b13 etc etc. So my point was why can there be a II/III in C major this would be F# (as this would be the Dorian of E) the root chord of this scale would be F#m7b5 and the scale would have to be appropriately named (don't know how to named it just yet). That's all I was saying/asking.You have scales called Mixolydian b9 b13 and Lydian Augmented etc so why can therte be a II/something? Not necessarily the chord but a scale with all its chord tones... Think I'm rambling now so I stop... You can certainly have a II of III or a V of III but at that point you've modulated to the key of III, even if it's just for a bar. That's what I was talking about with shifting key centers. For instance, in the key of C, if you play a V7 of III, you're playing a B7b9 chord which just doesn't exist in the key of C. It does, however, exist in the key of E minor, so, you've really made a temporary shift to the key of E minor. If you study classical theory and figured bass, you'll see this type of analysis a lot.Don't necessarily think of the scale for each chord, instead, think of the key you're moving to. This way, you have a much broader overview of the music instead of just chord to chord or scale to scale. It's a subtle shift in perception but it really opens up many more possibilities because it removes the vertical chord to chord thinking and broadens it out in to a key center way of thinking, which, to my mind, is more linear. It's made my improvisations more melodic and cohesive and less like "playing on the changes".It's still fine to talk about different types of scales but if you're playing on a B7b9, you're probably going to play some form of an E harmonic minor scale.Hope this makes sense.Mazz

[gongchime]

Modes are not determined by what note you start and end on. They're either determined by the interval relationship in a scale and/or the underlying chords. This is because you don't always start playing the scale from it's first note. Then there are the frequent instances of the chords insisting on one mode and the melody playing another. Over a minor blues consisting of Am, Dm and Em which all exist in the key of A minor, you could play A aeolian, A dorian, A phrygian, A melodic minor, A harmonic minor, A melodic minor b2, A harmonic minor b2, A melodic minor #4, A harmonic minor #4, A harmonic minor b2#4, A melodic minor b2#4, A Blues/A minor Pentatonic, on and on...and that's just over the A minor chord.

[stephen]

Jul 19, 2008, 10:33pm, mazz wrote:Jul 19, 2008, 7:37pm, stephen wrote:Don't get me wrong, I'm was just pondering the possibilities of the substitution and Modal Interchange (borrowing from the other diatonic scales minor etc). I'm just saying that you can have a V7/V in the key of C this chord would be D7. This chord would receive a Mixolydian mode as it is a dominant chord even thought it does not belong to the key of C major. The chord associated with this would be a straight D7 chord. However a V7/II in C major would be A7 and the scale associated with this is a Mixolydian b13 etc etc. So my point was why can there be a II/III in C major this would be F# (as this would be the Dorian of E) the root chord of this scale would be F#m7b5 and the scale would have to be appropriately named (don't know how to named it just yet). That's all I was saying/asking.You have scales called Mixolydian b9 b13 and Lydian Augmented etc so why can therte be a II/something? Not necessarily the chord but a scale with all its chord tones... Think I'm rambling now so I stop... You can certainly have a II of III or a V of III but at that point you've modulated to the key of III, even if it's just for a bar. That's what I was talking about with shifting key centers. For instance, in the key of C, if you play a V7 of III, you're playing a B7b9 chord which just doesn't exist in the key of C. It does, however, exist in the key of E minor, so, you've really made a temporary shift to the key of E minor. If you study classical theory and figured bass, you'll see this type of analysis a lot.Don't necessarily think of the scale for each chord, instead, think of the key you're moving to. This way, you have a much broader overview of the music instead of just chord to chord or scale to scale. It's a subtle shift in perception but it really opens up many more possibilities because it removes the vertical chord to chord thinking and broadens it out in to a key center way of thinking, which, to my mind, is more linear. It's made my improvisations more melodic and cohesive and less like "playing on the changes".It's still fine to talk about different types of scales but if you're playing on a B7b9, you're probably going to play some form of an E harmonic minor scale.Hope this makes sense.MazzNow this is where it's interesting that same B7b9 is C diminished, A diminished,Eb/D# diminished, F# diminished an D7b9. As a songwriter and composer I can at my will call it any of these depending on my melody, chord voicing and my mood at the time. This knowledge has open up a whole new world to me.

[stephen]

Jul 20, 2008, 4:46am, gongchime wrote:Modes are not determined by what note you start and end on. They're either determined by the interval relationship in a scale and/or the underlying chords. This is because you don't always start playing the scale from it's first note. Then there are the frequent instances of the chords insisting on one mode and the melody playing another. Over a minor blues consisting of Am, Dm and Em which all exist in the key of A minor, you could play A aeolian, A dorian, A phrygian, A melodic minor, A harmonic minor, A melodic minor b2, A harmonic minor b2, A melodic minor #4, A harmonic minor #4, A harmonic minor b2#4, A melodic minor b2#4, A Blues/A minor Pentatonic, on and on...and that's just over the A minor chord. hey Gong (hope it's ok for me to call you that ) this is true I totally agree with you. This is where it is so beautiful the possibilities of what is possible gives my goose pimple

[mazz]

Stephen,You can call that chord anything you'd like but harmonically, at any one time, it is only one thing, depending on the key you are in (assuming that you are saying compositionally that you are in a key). If we weren't dealing in equal temperament but rather in just intonation, then each of those chords would actually have a different sound and would probably function in one key only. Equal temperament gives us equal modulation but also gives us the curse of "enharmonic" notes which leads to lots of confusion on what to name something and also a whole slew of chord symbols that are widely misused and not well understood (or standardized for that matter). It gets worse with "modal" music or music based on hybrid scales, because it's inherently linear and may not necessarily generate neat stacks of thirds that can be called "C Major 7th".To amplify what Greg was saying about all the different scales available on the Am blues: all of those scales he mentioned are referring back to A, which is the key center, A minor is the modality. As I mentioned before, all twelve notes of the equal tempered scale are fair game and will sound musical as long as their usage maintains some relationship to the tonality you happen to be in at the moment, however abstract that relationship is (i.e.: Herbie Hancock with Miles in the 60s!).This is a subject that is wide open and as deep as it is wide.Enjoy,Mazz

[mikedunbar]

Gongchime and Mazz are exactly right. Modes are different facets of a diatonic scale. The concept of modes predate tempered scales. If you ever get a chance to play around with an instrument that isn't tempered, such as a pennywhistle, it gets easier to appreciate modes and how they are not the same as one constructed with a tempered "do to do" scale with some accidentals.A good way to remember the modes is: In Dr. Peppers Laboratory Many Are Lost. A mnemonic for Ionian Dorian Phrygian Lydian Mixolydian Aeolian Locrian. Ionian is do to do. Dorian is re to re. Phrygian is mi to mi. Lydian is fa to fa. Mixolydian is sol to sol, Aeolian is la to la. Locian is ti to ti.

[stephen]

Jul 20, 2008, 11:46am, mazz wrote:Stephen,You can call that chord anything you'd like but harmonically, at any one time, it is only one thing, depending on the key you are in (assuming that you are saying compositionally that you are in a key). If we weren't dealing in equal temperament but rather in just intonation, then each of those chords would actually have a different sound and would probably function in one key only. Equal temperament gives us equal modulation but also gives us the curse of "enharmonic" notes which leads to lots of confusion on what to name something and also a whole slew of chord symbols that are widely misused and not well understood (or standardized for that matter). It gets worse with "modal" music or music based on hybrid scales, because it's inherently linear and may not necessarily generate neat stacks of thirds that can be called "C Major 7th".To amplify what Greg was saying about all the different scales available on the Am blues: all of those scales he mentioned are referring back to A, which is the key center, A minor is the modality. As I mentioned before, all twelve notes of the equal tempered scale are fair game and will sound musical as long as their usage maintains some relationship to the tonality you happen to be in at the moment, however abstract that relationship is (i.e.: Herbie Hancock with Miles in the 60s!).This is a subject that is wide open and as deep as it is wide.Enjoy,Mazz Mazz I'm not disagreeing with you or Gongchime. I think our discussion has been quite healthy and pimple raising for me What I'm saying is that the B7b9 chord when analysed is actually a diminished chord based on the requirements for constructing a diminished chord i.e root minor third diminished fifth and double flat seventh. There are only three diminished chords all the rest are inversions. Naming the chord is simply up to composers discretion or knowledge. some chord can be named more suitably depending on the key/tonal center. As to your point on the A minor mentioned yes!! all those scales are related to A no argument there tonal music is easy to define. It's all the other stuff that can't be boxed in to fit with the tonal stuff...

[mikedunbar]

The B7b9 would be: B D# F# A C. The B fully diminished seventh would be B D F Ab. There is no fully diminished nine, because the double flat nine would repeat the B.

[stephen]

Jul 20, 2008, 1:02pm, mikedunbar wrote:The B7b9 would be: B D# F# A C. The B fully diminished seventh would be B D F Ab. There is no fully diminished nine, because the double flat nine would repeat the B. I feel misunderstood. There is no fully diminished ninth what I said is this B7b9 is Root B, Third D#, fifth F#, seventh A and Ninth C naturalC diminished is C, D#/Eb,F#/Gb and AF# diminished is F#,A,C,Ebthey are they same...