Modes/Improvisation

[geo]

Jul 19, 2008, 10:06pm, mojobone wrote:@ Geo: Like a lot of things that are associated with music and theory, modes are not as complicated as they seem; it's the terminology that makes it sound like rocket science. The first hurdle, for me, was understanding the implications of the relative minor; that by learning one scale, I already knew almost a dozen more: if you know and can comprehend the major scale, the ol' "do re mi fa so la ti do", you know everything there is to know about both chords and scales. Counterintuitive, yes, but also a fact. Maybe someday ain't far off, all that's required is a small adjustment in how you think about where the notes should go.That may be true but then I try to follow a thread like this .... and my head explodes ...One day...Peace, Geo

[mikedunbar]

Jul 20, 2008, 5:11pm, stephen wrote:[I feel misunderstood. There is no fully diminished ninth what I said is this B7b9 is Root B, Third D#, fifth F#, seventh A and Ninth C naturalC diminished is C, D#/Eb,F#/Gb and AF# diminished is F#,A,C,Ebthey are they same...Stephen, Yes, they are the same...except for the B note. B7b9 is B D# F# A C F# fully diminished seventh (which some people simply call "diminished") is F# A C Eb(D#) but no B note. I guess it could be called a fully dimished seventh add eleven, but it's much more elegant to call it a B7b9.For others who may be reading, concerning the fully-diminished seventh. The diminished chord is really a triad. There are four triads: major, minor, augmented and diminished. The diminished triad is formed on the leading tone, or seventh tone of the diatonic scale in ionian (major) mode. In C, it is B D F. There are two types of sevenths chords that are based on the diminished triad.First, the half-diminished seventh (the symbol for this is the small zero with a line through it). In C major, it would be: B D F A. That's the B half-diminished seventh, also known as the B minor seventh flat five. Second, the fully-diminished seventh. In C major it would be: B D F Ab. That is the fully diminished seventh, and is known commonly but incorrectly as simply the diminished chord.And Stephen, I agree, and stated earlier, that there is no fully diminished ninth, to diminish the ninth, you end up with the root. All the Best,

[mazz]

Stephen,I hope I didn't come off argumentative because that wasn't my intention at all. This topic is like a diamond with many facets and ways of looking at it. The ultimate goal, after all, is the music and what it sounds like. If the theory, however you decide to look at it, can help you become a better composer and improviser, then by all means use it however it works for you. I just like to throw my 50 cents in there!! BTW: As soon as you add the Ab to that B diminished triad, you've just borrowed the Ab from C minor momentarily. Those kinds of notes resolving to a major chord are one of the signature sounds of jazz.Keep the ideas coming!!Cheers!!Mazz

[stephen]

Jul 20, 2008, 6:36pm, mazz wrote:Stephen,I hope I didn't come off argumentative because that wasn't my intention at all. This topic is like a diamond with many facets and ways of looking at it. The ultimate goal, after all, is the music and what it sounds like. If the theory, however you decide to look at it, can help you become a better composer and improviser, then by all means use it however it works for you. I just like to throw my 50 cents in there!! BTW: As soon as you add the Ab to that B diminished triad, you've just borrowed the Ab from C minor momentarily. Those kinds of notes resolving to a major chord are one of the signature sounds of jazz.Keep the ideas coming!!Cheers!!Mazz Mazz I' don't feel that way at all, I was just say that I am enjoying our discourse. The English language is quite a funny thing

[mazz]

"The English language is quite a funny thing"That it is my friend, that it is!!Cheers!Mazz

[kurtkreimier]

Gee, I realize this thread has been dead for a day or so but I really wanted to chime in. Stephen, I can kind of see where you are coming from on this. If I am improvising over a set of chord changes and I see a dominant 7th chord with a flat 9th I am going to forget the root note of this chord and treat it as a fully diminished 7th chord. You will see this a lot in minor blues jazz progressions. For example in the key of D minor you will see the a 2 chord (Em7b5 - half diminished 7th) then 5 chord (A7b9 - fully diminshed 7th chord adding the C# leading tone) and then resolving back to Dm7. Even if I am playing in a major key such as C I may go ahead and treat the dominant chord G7 as a G7b9 and blow a G# diminished chord and/or scale to mix it up a little bit. Or maybe even a B augmented chord or scale. In reality there are only 3 fully diminished 7th chords and diminished scales with different inversions and/or starting points of those same notes. Augmented chords are a little different but you will find there are only 4 augmented triads and 2 augmented scales, once again with different inversions and starting points with those same notes. In terms of your original question on modes I have often thought of modes as their own key from a standpoint of chord progressions and improvising. You might want to experiment using established 2, 5, 1 or 4, 5, 1 type chord progressions within a mode. For example in D Dorian think Em7, Am7 and then Dm7, a 2, 5, 1 progression within the D Dorian mode. Or you might try a 2, 5, 1 in A Aeolian which would be Bm7b5 to Em7 to Am7. I have many times found these kind of turn arounds very interesting and helpful, especially in jazz improvising and/or trying to establish key changes. You can also try working in something new when you get back to the 1 chord such as what Mazz was referring to above. Once again in D Dorian do a Em7 (2 chord) to Am7 (5 chord) and then substitue DMaj7 instead of the Dm7 for the 1 chord. There are all kinds of possibilities. I would say keep experimenting and thinking of things in different ways.Kurt

[thecolonel]

The last few months I've come to understand modes much more. I think of them when playing them, as different forms of their major scale. So, for example, D Dorian is a D major with a b3 & b7; what's secondary to me is the fact that D Dorian is actually the C major scale beginning on the second degree. Since I'm a guitar player, it's easier to remember to play a D major (with a b3 and b7) instead of thinking about playing the C major scale on a Dm chord in the key of C... blah blah blah.Just try and play a scale that matches the tonality! Play the b3 b7 (dorian) scale on a Dm chord in the key of Bb. That is the beauty of music. And let's not forget the modes of the harmonic minor scale! I decide what scale to use based on what the 3rd of the chord looks like. If it's a major 3rd, I use a "major" scale (lydian, mixolydian, ionian); if it's a minor 3rd, I use a "minor" scale (phrygian dominant, melodic minor, dorian). That's just my way of looking at it. Cheers and good luck!!

[stephen]

Didn't recognize this topic was still hot. Well throw some more coals in the fire later.

[gongchime]

If you know your minor scales just as well as you know your major scales then thinking of Dorian as a minor scale with a raised 6 is even easier. The chords for Santana's tune "Evil Ways" imply G Dorian. What you play over the top of that is up to you. Primarily it only uses 2 chords G minor and C major. The C Major is the IV of G minor. In a minor key the IV chord is minor. So, that's a big red flag that it's not calling for a normal G minor scale. A jazz cat might play C Lydian over the C Major chord when it comes around. I think of combining G Dorian with C Lydian. C Lydian has a raised 4 which is F#. So put the F# into the G minor with a raised six aka G Dorian and we have a G minor chord with a raised six and a raised 7 aka G melodic minor. Then you don't have to change scale when the chords change to get the right color. It would conflict if the G minor chord was Gm7 but since it's not then you can play G melodic minor. Of course, that's not stylistic to the tune in which case you'd have to stick near a G minor pentatonic scale and bring in the F# as a chromatic inflection of that. And play around with the normal and raised 6th.

[thecolonel]

Good point. I would probably try and use melodic minor and some pentatonic runs with the f# thrown in there. You're right, the context of the chord within the key is what determines the "correct" mode (if you will) to use over that chord. Recently I have been learning to try and play the changes in one position and not go too far from that. I can play the major and minor scales all over the fretboard, but I would like to know exactly what I'm playing in one position before I move along.