monitor speaker recommendations?

[Kolstad]

Yes, if you can find some NHT Pro monitors (California company), maybe the m-00 or M-20. You can get a sub (S-20) with them too. I got the m-00s after reading it was a favourite of Nashville producer Chuck Ainley. Also Mark Knopfler have mixed guitars on the m-00's for a long time, as they have a really nice midrange which makes them ideal if you have a lot of guitars in your productions and want to feature them. I've found that they also translate very well to other systems, as well as being easy on the ears if you spend long hours in the studio (who doesn't ). The m-00s are out of production now, but you can still find them used from time to time. The M-20's are reportedly even better, so either ones might suit you well, imo.

[Kolstad]

Ive heard great things about Genelec too. Comes down to price point.

While were on this thread, who recommends sub woofers ?
I have near fields and I'm always cursed with boomy muddy low end.
I love to push the bottom end as much as I can.
I have treated my room and I do use reference mixes which often saves me from wasting cd's for my car.
Will a better pair of monitors fix that issue, or are subs the answer ?
I've been debating whether to just getting an iPod dock for quick referencing instead of upgrading my monitors.

Rich.

a different answer is.. to mix bass you need to push some air. So it might help you just to mix at different volumes, and especially mix bass at high levels (about 85db in your mix position according to mixerman's "Zen and the art of mixing"). You can measure that with an SPL meter if you like. That is seemingly the level where our ears (a general assumption that may vary depending on individual ears ) are relatively "flat". But the basic proposition is that you can't make decisions about the low end of your mix at low levels, so for that particular aspect you need to dial it up. If you don't do this, try it first, before you turn to solve it with gear. It can save you a bundle.

[playagibson]

You don't hear the low 30-50 k areas but too much will kill your mix.
It makes your speakers work harder. It's basically clutter.
I always high pass at 30k ( low end ) on bass and kick etc...
I've finished mixes that sound nice and warm on my near fields
only to discover that the lower end was pushed to hard when
I play back in my car or on a regular stereo.
I do think subs will fix that so your near fields are only handling
the frequencies they were best designed for.
I know there are plenty of people out there who have a better
grasp of mixing than I do, which is why I'm curious
if subs are a must if you want to take your mixing to the next level.

[rdance]

thanks all for contributing to this thread, i'm learning!

[cardell]

You don't hear the low 30-50 k areas but too much will kill your mix.
It makes your speakers work harder. It's basically clutter.
I always high pass at 30k ( low end ) on bass and kick etc...
I've finished mixes that sound nice and warm on my near fields
only to discover that the lower end was pushed to hard when
I play back in my car or on a regular stereo.
I do think subs will fix that so your near fields are only handling
the frequencies they were best designed for.
I know there are plenty of people out there who have a better
grasp of mixing than I do, which is why I'm curious
if subs are a must if you want to take your mixing to the next level.

I've had some issues with this too.

My studio monitors are sitting on isolation pads, I've got [some] room treatment & I'm using ARC2 room correction, but if I play something that sounds fine on them on the big pair of speakers, sitting right next to a wall in my living room, the bass in my mix can be too much.

I think the problem is: my lounge speakers are too damn close to the wall and overemphasis the bass range.

Stuart

[andygabrys]

well here's my 2 cents on the matter:

probably nobody on this thread really has a well treated room, and nobody likely has a big enough room where wall / ceiling reflection effects don't make a difference. I know Rich has got up some panels and such and the IK Multimedia ARC, and I have a bunch of panels, Kayles got a couple I remember from pics. What about the rest of you(s) ?

Having seen pictures of some of your rooms, and knowing what mine is (11' x 13' x 8' high drywall finished, 9 4" thick panels up in corners etc. monitors 2' off the walls) - I don't think anyone is mixing in a space where the room nodes wouldn't be an issue - and all of us are probably a long way from "flat" in the bass response.

I imagine you would need a space that is at least 16' wide, and at least 25' in length, and probably 12' high or more minimum, plus treatment to be even close to "flat". Otherwise sound at various frequencies will tend to bounce around and create constructive / destructive interference patterns, and node points that are either hot spots for bass or low spots for bass. If you have shot your room using the Room Wizard kind of software and an omni mic you will know exactly what I am talking about. It can be wild, 25-30 db +/- without treatment in my room.

so regardless of how well our monitors reproduce low frequencies, its going to be pretty much an educated guess on what's happening down low due to room effects. If you add a sub and get the ability to reproduce down to 25 hz, the room still might fool you.

say you have the average set of 8" monitors (like my Event TR8's). They have a reported freq range of 35Hz-20kHz ±3dB. But its also ported, so the bass response is going to be hyped at the low end, and probably will have a "hole" or dip in the bass corresponding to the resonant frequency of the port. That's partly why NS10's were loved (hated). They didn't have much low bass, but they were not ported, so at least what you heard was fairly reliably smooth. Same with the Auratones.

a high quality non-ported design like http://www.barefootsound.com/micromain27gen2.html will reproduce 30Hz to a greater accuracy and have a smoother response above that. The Barefoot has a 10" woofer and it only gets a reliable 30 Hz. They are also $10,000 USD.

for comparison - the low B string of a 5 string bass is 30.87 Hz. The A string is 55Hz.
Most 22" kick drums speak at around 65Hz, and of course have sub tones below that.
the lowest notes of a piano go below that.

So even with 8" drivers, you are only hearing harmonics of the lowest notes.

Most peoples hearing will go as low as 20hz. Most people of any advanced age don't hear higher than about 16kHz.

so I think the answer is getting as full range of a system as you can afford - and monitoring at 85 db, and much lower - switching back and forth to keep fine tuning the frequency balance, and general volume balance.

re: Fletcher - Munson. Although 85 db is supposed to be the magic number - the ears response curve at that level isn't very flat either, but its probably better than louder than 85 db. I think the main thing about the 85 db is if you know what volume level on your monitor controller corresponds to 85 db, you can establish some repeatable measurements, so without instruments, you can have a good relative "feel" about loudness and frequency balance.

I dunno - Crawdaddy, I think I would keep the HR824's even if they seem to be crowding the room. Played low, they are going to give you a better picture of low end than a smaller speaker. Played loud, unless your loft is uber-large, its going to be the same issue that all of us have. You ear will compress, and the room will start vibrating.

[kclements]

very thoughtful post from Mr. Gabrys. And as usual, I agree with what he is saying. That Andy is one smart cookie.

cheers -
kc

[rdance]

I dunno - Crawdaddy, I think I would keep the HR824's even if they seem to be crowding the room. Played low, they are going to give you a better picture of low end than a smaller speaker. Played loud, unless your loft is uber-large, its going to be the same issue that all of us have. You ear will compress, and the room will start vibrating.

i do love my mackies, and they are really flat and full range. and i just figured out a way to set up my room when i start working with daw, so i may not need to buy a second pair for now.

ps, my room is 17 x 21, wood floors on joists, (2nd floor, no concrete slab); sandblasted masonry walls, 9 ft open joist ceilings, old oriental rugs laying around, art on the walls. also used to double as the executive pleasure palace (now just an old dude's bedroom). included a pic of the current messy setup...getting ready to re-do all that!

[Russell Landwehr]

Having seen pictures of some of your rooms, and knowing what mine is (11' x 13' x 8' high drywall finished, 9 4" thick panels up in corners etc. monitors 2' off the walls) - I don't think anyone is mixing in a space where the room nodes wouldn't be an issue - and all of us are probably a long way from "flat" in the bass response.

I imagine you would need a space that is at least 16' wide, and at least 25' in length, and probably 12' high or more minimum, plus treatment to be even close to "flat". Otherwise sound at various frequencies will tend to bounce around and create constructive / destructive interference patterns, and node points that are either hot spots for bass or low spots for bass.

You got THAT right, Andy. My room is 12' deep, 24' wide. The ceiling is 12' in the center and 8' at the end walls. The left and right thirds of the front wall are angled back.

I tested my room with a simple db meter (and my ears) playing a sine sweep from 0hz up to dog-pain-khz. I could hear the nodes in the bottom end and they went pretty high in the spectrum. And you CAN'T fix it with EQ
I have no traps... that is my summer project.

But when I mix, if I hear notes that sound too loud or too quiet, and the meters aren't matching what I'm hearing, I just chalk it up to room nodes and move on.

Richard - is that picture your new setup? If so, I think you are certainly gonna emphasize the bottom end with the monitors in the corner... it'll turn the corner into a ghost-sub.

Russell

[rdance]

russ, no, that's the current mess.