My latest beef.... WAIT! There's more.

[diogenes]

I think Mazz put it pretty succinctly in the above post.

[squids]

I agree; can't say it betta than that.

[mojobone]

Sad thing is, the more involved we become with music, the greater our knowledge, the further it takes us from the way the 'average end user' experiences our art. I am firmly and irrevocably in the single malt camp. No turning back, now.

[southpaw]

Quote:Are you guys joking when you downplay how talented Beyonce is? She's not my favorite artist either, but please don't kid yourselves! She has an outstanding voice that is probably about one in a million. Please.. One in a million? ..I can call at least two female R&B singers, just off hand, who can blow beyonces voice out of the water, period. I dont get why people think she is more than flash and sex appeal masking mediocre talent at best..? Her voice is wavery and the way she sings instantly fatigues my ears.. Personally I cannot stand her voice, albeit beside my main point. Sure, she can dance well to choreagraphed music with professionals sculpting just about every part of her movement, publicly, and musically, on stage... She's cookie cutter, singing cookie cutter songs. "if ya like it den ya betta put a ring on it, if ya like it then ya betta put a ring on it....?" Absolute garbage... Does she have talent? Sure. Could she be replaced? Of course. She has done things right for sure, and has sustained extroadinay success.. Im sure she is smart, im sure she works hard, i know she is sexy, and obviously she can sing + dance well enough to have a marketable package, and good shot at success with the right backing and opportunity. Many people can do that, and she does it fine.. Dont kid yourself thinking that she's a one in a million talent though, c'mon.. Lets say-strictly based off vocal chops.... Alicia Keys, for example is a one in a million vocal talent... Beyonces holds no candle, period... BUT... you have an etta james, bob dylan, billie holiday, for example who will have an socially meaningful impact, for as far i can see, maybe forever.. Not neccessarily for how talented their voices are/were... But because of that 'other x factor'. That hard to define culmination of situation/enviroment, social awareness, and a distinct ability to express where they come from AND somehow communicate their perspective and convey their message--inside a frame of time or circumstance, on a much more powerful/meaningful/captivating level.. This is a rare allignment of many other variables that is becoming less and less important apparently. I think this is simply because, the people who have money want to invest and make more.. Now why would someone want to invest in something that was a greater risk if they could invest in something that worked and was proven to have an adequate ROI. Now can you tell me 'bouncy the bountiful beauty' has an impact strong enough to say she is one in a million..? So the big money hires the big names with a track record to manufacture a proven and successful business model for making a star. (No secret here) On a deeper level, this strikes me as an issue that impacts much more than just music. The fact that i can see this problem as a mid twenty something makes me embarassed sometimes to say that i am just that. (From this generation) It makes me wonder how people will remember our time... All i know is it makes me respect what ive learned about the past generations and it honestly gives me a small feeling of guilt. (But thats another thread..) 'I just wrote a song about my grandfather which ties some of the thoughts ive been having about this recently, its over in the peer to peer by the way.Quote:and what's this about her "not paying her dues" or some nonsense? Does anyone here even know her life story? How her father quit his day job to help her and her group (Destiny's Child) rehearse and hone their skills, which ultimately lended to her parents getting divorced? She put in the hard time that any great artist or musician does. Give her the respect she deserves.Im sure she doesnt care if people think she is deserving of her success.Long hours on the set of a music video is tough work id guess.. Im being serious here.Ok, nobodys disputing the fact that she had to work hard. How many people don't have to work hard to be successful though..? Id venture to say a slim few. The point is, she was a groomed singer her whole life. Of course she can sing. Her father was a successful record manager... Her mother was a fashion designer and a hair stylist. Its not very unexpected or some sacred sacrifice that the parents made by deciding to use their 'directly translatable' job experience to hone their little baby cash cow. (i dont intend to sound cynical) ..Especially since she was already achieving success as a little girl. She has been molded to perform and sing songs her whole life, through private performing art schools/programs, and involved parents who knew how to help her develop as a singer and performer etc..Through her journey of life which has led her to a setup stage where she can really speak to the masses, we wait captivated by all the glamour and lights of the show, we chear when she comes on stage, enamoured by her beauty and dance moves, and then.... "If ya like it then ya betta put a ring on it, if ya like it then ya betta put a ring on it..." Not again..{i sigh}Once again, im sure she had to work hard. I respect that she is a successful person. I respect that she followed her dream. I enjoy watching her music videos and i respect whoever is responsible for picking out what she wears.. Do i think that is special, absolutely. But is she one in a million..? Not a chance.

[billg]

Feb 9, 2009, 9:52pm, sgs4u wrote:Feb 9, 2009, 6:44pm, mazz wrote:I respect Beyonce and appreciate the dues she's paid (old musician's term: paying your dues), and there's no denying her talent. I just don't hear or feel it as much as I do with Etta or Aretha. That's just me and my tastes and opinions, nothing more, nothing less.MazzWe all have opinions yer right Mazz. Does any of them actually matter? Here's mine: Beyonce is wicked talented, she's paid her dues. Her legacy will stand the test of time.Aretha is wicked good, she's paid lots of dues too. No one will ever replace the Queen of Soul Etta is wicked good too, she might still be paying dues. Etta will leave a legacy, but mostly for that particular song. If Aretha had been chosen to sing At Last, would Etta have a problem with that? I find this argument moot, because all 3 of them are fabulous. Why compare a perfectly ripe banana to a cherry and an orange? How can any one of them be better than the other. Perhaps more appropriate for the demographic of a given project. Obviously, Etta would be the wrong choice to sing a romantic song to teenaged boys. How can any of them be less important than the other? What is the point of analyzing that? love music Well there is no real point in analyzing the importance of each because only time will sort that out, but portraying another person and reproducing their signature "art" is either meant to draw comparisons or was ill conceived. Most people I know that have seen the movie really like it, I think it was meant to draw comparisons. Beyonce is fair game to the critics whether favorable or not. It had to be known on the outset that there would be some of each.

[erandall]

Wish I could sing anywhere near as badly as Beyonce!

[hazineju]

Feb 9, 2009, 10:25pm, mazz wrote:.... there's really no empirically valid way to say "this is good music and this is not", because it's obviously an individual thing. We'll never get to the bottom of it. Mazzvery true, mazz!

[sgs4u]

Feb 9, 2009, 10:15pm, squids wrote:Feb 9, 2009, 9:52pm, sgs4u wrote:[quote author=mazz board=general thread=12073 post=119790 time=1234233849] How can any of them be less important than the other? What is the point of analyzing that? Because it's fun?? Is it fun to point out why one singer is less important than the other? Ok, you win. Go right ahead.

[sgs4u]

Feb 10, 2009, 1:45am, southpaw wrote:Quote:Are you guys joking when you downplay how talented Beyonce is? She's not my favorite artist either, but please don't kid yourselves! She has an outstanding voice that is probably about one in a million. Please.. One in a million? ..I can call at least two female R&B singers, just off hand, who can blow beyonces voice out of the water, period. Beyonce is one in a million. And would you be so foolish to decide not to have Beyonce sing one of your songs, because you think there are "better" singers? Yes, the other singers you believe to be awesome, are also equally talented. You personal preferences dictate to YOU, who is good and who isn't. But your preferences aren't going to convince me. Beyonce is no Christina, but Christina is one in 10,000,000 to me. Then again that's just my opinion. And I'm only adding to this thread because I find it hilarious that people will write on a public forum, judge who's talent is more better, and pretend that their opinion SHOULD matter. Jennifer Hudson and Alicia Keys are also 2 out of 10,000,000. I'm quite positive there must be thousands of technically and emotionally gifted singers who might blow the 4 singers in this post right out of the water. But they might never get a chance to be heard, because they ain't pretty enough, or their manager is a dumb-ass, or they pissed off the wrong person at the wrong time. The artists we're actually exposed to is such a tiny fraction of the greatness that is out there. Life isn't always fair. The best doesn't always win, and kicking a dead horse subject just gets people all fired up with negative fighting energy. I just don't get why saying one person is more talented, even matters... We're all allowed to like and enjoy whomever rocks our world. While you're pointing at the person who doesn't deserve what she got, you're showing the world what a whiner you are. haha. Me, I just wish I could sing as well as Bill. and I sure hope you know me well enough to know I'm telling you my TRUTH!

[ggalen]

I think people just want the music business to be "fair", so that it is more predictable, and most importantly, that *they* can have a high probability of financial and artistic success if they practice hard enough and raise their skill.But of course, life isn't fair. It's just what it is.You can still be an artistic success if you write music you are proud of and you enjoy playing and singing.Basically I agree with Steve.