Never stray from formulas?

[Mark Kaufman]

Aug 7, 2008, 10:02pm, sgs4u wrote:Mark's jokes are indeed as lame as his drum tracks used to be. I'll ignore that thank you very much. I know you adore my jokes. It's just that your pants are too tight. They're like a cheap hotel--no ballroom.

[jkellyjr]

In journalism school back when newspapers still had a future, I kept writing stories "my way" and kept getting D's, maybe C's, if I was lucky. Then I smartened up a little and started writing things the way this particular prof seemed to like (which was pretty straight and boring to my mind). Grades got better, party life got better, and now 24 years later, I'm in even deeper shit with a nosediving industry! See what getting smarter did! Careful what you wish for. I feel that same way about songwriting "success." Hell, it would probably just be more work. I'm an inspiration junkie, anyway. Work sucks, which is why I like writing headlines. Instant publication, minimal work for songwriter types.Toiling at five papers with a plethora of punsters, I thought I had heard most of the good ones, but, unless he's recycling, that "ballroom" quip didn't suck, you have to admit! Art is either plagiarism or revolution!

[edteja]

But the truth of the matter comes from Gilbert & Sullivan.."Never?"No never! "Never? "Well, hardly ever."Of course I doubt they would get a forward these days.

[horacejesse]

Hey Jr, the screener probably meant to say 99% of the time and forgot, or just figured you would know the difference.The song seems out of synch with itself lyric-wise. It does not need just a little work, and I think the profusion of advice from the screener with regards to possible changes is well directed.There is no character development throughout. The character just seems frantic with indecision from reading the lyrics by themselves. The chorus says nothing that has not just been said in the first verse.At the end of the bridge you introduce plurality in a way that serves to confuse further. One cannot tell if the song is addressed to your kids, your parents, your ex-wives or humanity in general.To me the dream ending comes across as contrived, as does the "Love" in the song that will "Raise up mens' hearts."The introduction of crassness such as "Financial," and "Hate Machine," into what feel like tradtional Christmas lyrics, is way out of place unless your song is a grunge satire or something. Certain things will work in that setting that would not work otherwise. But if your song is a satire it is a poor one of those. A song has to show its identity. Listeners want to know who you are speaking to. The screener is doing his job by givng you remodeling advice. But I think it is going to take a lot deeper overhaul. Fly a 747 into it, Jr., and save what scrap metal you can.

[gongchime]

I think people breaking in cannot afford long intros (4 measure MAX!!!). Or Bridges until after the second chorus. However, I hear transitions all the time. But those would not constitute even 8 measures with even 6 measures being extremely long. 4 is good. 2 measures is probably better. I also think extending or shortening sections, if the lyrics demand that, is O.K. for people still breaking in. There is perhaps even room for uncommon time signatures or even changing time signatures. But 8-16 measures of "Bridge" that occurs before the second chorus would fall in the Certain Death category for the chances your tune would be picked up by anyone. The band YES in their very beginning were surprised to learn that their tunes were longer than 12 minutes. Often more than twice as long as a tune on an album which is not aimed at radio. And 4 times longer than a tune needs to be aimed at radio airplay. Even after they tried to cut things down, their tunes were still "too long". Of course they were in the right place, at the right time, with the right music and played as much as they could everywhere they could and developed a following. If your fans don't care, then you don't need to care either. If you don't have fans and are just pitching to execs in the industry, formulas are your friend.

[jkellyjr]

If there's a war machine, you can bet there exists a metaphorical hate machine. But I agree with the more reasonable here that my term was jarring. As for cliches in Xmas songs, well, WTF, dude? Of course there are going to be terms like love, and hearts, good-will toward men, and, God forbid, PEACE. Know your audience. Check out all the Xmas songs you can, and get back to me. I don't mind constructive editing; been working in publishing my entire career. I'm probably more thick-skinned from the daily creative grind than most here. But nothing spectacular will come from minds that think dreams and raising hearts have no place in Xmas songs. Oh, and this was a constructive touch: "Fly a 747 into it, Jr., and save what scrap metal you can." That's the proverbial hate machine in action, whether you're in touch with that concept or not, pal. There's always one boulder-on-the-shoulder wannabe to ruin a decent chat. Oh, well. Anyway, I really just wanted to discuss that bridge question, and I got some good answers. So thanks to the smart fellow punsters! Nobody here's making a living from Taxi.com. So, like the Eagles crooned: Take it Easy.

[sgs4u]

Kelly, you're very new here. Whether you like what HoraceJesse said or not, he took the time to offer you suggestions. Given that the thread got sarcastic early on, he wasn't way out of line with the 747 comment. I agree with HoraceJesse, the song isn't worth saving, but a few lines here and there, might be good for something else. You're free to not like suggestions, and not use them. But you could still take the time to say thank you. Gongchime tends to talk a lot about stats, and how things oughtta go, to get lucky with songwriting and music. But he also knows a lot. They both were attempting to tell you the truth, the way they hear it. This forum is full of people with great hearts, who care about each other, their growth and especially music. You made the comment that you don't think anyone is making a living from Taxi.com. You made some smart-ass remark about HJ needing to do some research about what belongs in a Christmas tune. That is in fact, what you need to do. Get yourself some books on how to write songs. Start with the Craft of Lyric Writing by Sheila Davis. Yes there are lots of songwriting rules, and sometimes they do get broken. But this song isn't better because you broke a few songwriting rules. You wrote a Christmas song that simply is not pleasant to listen to. What you've called a bridge, isn't really a bridge. You've just mislabeled it. The fact that you labeled it incorrectly, shows your experience level with regards to songwriting. But why take shots at a more experience writer than you, with your first song posted? You emailed me a file that neither iTunes or Quicktime could open. That was frustrating, and not very thorough. It was simply labeled, Christmastime. My computer thought it was some kind of doc, and I was scared it might be a virus. So I added the .mp3 extension, and it opened, much to my chagrin. You referred to yourself as, "pathetic, not savvy, stupid and naive," in the first paragraph of the email to me. I bet in reality, you are none of those things. But writing them in an email to me (a stranger), wrecked my enthusiasm to help you. When Vikki gets back from her vacation, she might be able to give you some more positive feedback. I don't want to wreck your Taxi forum experience, and if you stick around, you'll absorb and learn so much, so fast, you won't believe it. These are only my opinions, not Taxi's. My comments are biased, because I'm fiercely loyal to my friends here, and you took aim at one. Please don't think Taxi or the people on this forum are mean-spirited, or destructive.

[Casey H]

KellyCan you post a link to hear the song?Reading the lyrics, I agree with what's been said and constructively suggest some changes-- get rid of the hate machine. Also, Christmas songs do better sung one-to-one than one-to-many unless your theme is doesn't involve you and has a "peace on earth" message. Your song starts like you are talking to a single person and then switches to plural. It's confusing and any lyric reviewer would point that out. Your opening about not knowing what to get someone (assuming singular) is a good one.As far as structure, I really admire the way The Beatles wrote so many great songs that did not have conventional structure or didn't even have a chorus. I just listened to "When I'm 64" yesterday. They had an incredible knack for making every piece of a song a hook. Also, in the 60's, lyrics could be vague. Everyone was too stoned then to care ... That being said, things in today's world are different. First, new writers are held to different standards, like it or not. Writing to formula structures is the norm-- you rarely hear a new song on the radio with an 'odd' structure.I didn't hear your song (no link), but what I read is a decent first draft of lyrical ideas for a good song. Take the constructive feedback and a deep breath and do a re-write. Publishers are often looking for good Xmas songs this time of year. But, it's got to be a killer-- structure, hook, et al...HJ's reference to 747's was in poor taste IMHO. But the feedback itself as to the song was on the money.Good luck!(Huge Beatles Fan) Casey

[allends]

Aug 8, 2008, 11:26pm, jkellyjr wrote:...As for cliches in Xmas songs, well, WTF, dude?......I'm probably more thick-skinned from the daily creative grind than most here......Nobody here's making a living from Taxi.com. So, like the Eagles crooned: Take it Easy.Hi John (jkellyjr),I read everything that you wrote in this thread and all of the replies. I'm picking up from this thread a rich combination of knowledge, quick wit, love & compassion, and just a touch of attitude. It's all good. I feel compelled to chime in from an emotional level (what the hell - it's Saturday) and just let you know that I'm glad to see you here. I sense that you can be a great asset to this forum - you're a sharp dude. The vibe that I have discovered from hanging this particular board is pretty unique: there's a lot of love and fellowship that jumps right off the page in this little community. Once this feeling becomes ultra-clear for you I'll bet you'll be hooked! I'm hoping to see & hear more good stuff from you in the future! Cheers,Al

[jkellyjr]

Steve wrote: "You referred to yourself as, "pathetic, not savvy, stupid and naive," in the first paragraph of the email to me. I bet in reality, you are none of those things. But writing them in an email to me (a stranger), wrecked my enthusiasm to help you."We interrupt this thread to bring you the following clarification: Jelly Honk's self-criticisms in a "private" message were only with respect to his production "skills" on an old Boss 532. That's just being honest. In every other respect, he's an overcompensating egomaniac like anyone who practices this mostly self-important, self-absorbed craft. And girls, he's also extremely handsome! Myspace.com/jkellyjrI have received personal emails at home from frustrated Boss users seeking help (why me, I don't know), and often they include self-criticisms that I know they don't literally mean. That just makes me want to help more, because they opened up. We say a lot of things (especially when busy at work on deadline) that we don't literally mean. I guess I expected too much wisdom from the recipient because that one looked like a wise, old sage type. My bad. But I doubt whether some of the pseudo-elitism I was blasted with is justified. How can it be? I'll say it again: If you're still hanging around Taxi, you're doing it for reasons that have nothing to do with a potential for huge success. You're just as delusional as the rest of us. Talented, but delusional nonetheless! I would not purport to know, entirely, what your skill levels are until I have honestly listened to a bulk of your efforts. And even then, whatever, nevermind(sic). You know? If you suspect you might be pushing the criticism envelope a bit, just send a PM. Is that so wrong? I've been supported in my rather tame, calculated reaction to that post, so if this person is indeed wonderful, like his cyber-nanny purported, where's even a scintilla of contriteness? Some of you get way too comfortable residing at these sites for years and years.Also, I didn't post a link to the song because I didn't want to get into that craven "listen to me, listen to me" stuff. I had a simple thread question about structure. The melody and singing on "This Christmastime" are very good. Remember, we're all using our delusions! Doesn't bother me when others believe in themselves. An artist at our ripened ages believes in himself because he knows and feels how easily the essence has come over a lifetime. He knows in his heart. The nuts and bolts are another thing entirely. That takes a lifetime of consistent work, and the day jobs just keep getting in the way!Anyway, if you read the posts prior to the ridiculous "jet" quip, you'll see I was being more than humble in my acceptance of criticism of a simple family Xmas song that made relatives, friends and even people who don't really dig me feel good last year. It's the singing, baby, yeah! Nothing more, nothing less. Hate to break it to you all, but that's as good as it gets for many of us, and if you think about it, isn't that what you'll need to take with you when you blow your last breath and float off somewhere? Thanks to the good hearts with good smarts here, especially the fellow Beatle Freaks!! The kindness was truly appreciated, and in the end, I hope you get what you want, need!Jelly Honk