Never stray from formulas?

[jkellyjr]

Hi,Perhaps some wouldn't mind weighing in on a songwriting concern I had on one of my critiques. The listener was very nice in tone, so no problem there. But he/she used the "never" word:"Bridges are never needed til after the 2nd chorus where they provide a surprise melodic element to break up the verse/cho veerse/cho repetition. Last 2 verses are best but you need to tighten up the structure. Try dropping the piano break and just doing one chorus there and placing the other after the next verse so you don't end the song with 2 verses."As a Beatles fan, I know they used bridges all over. For example, Sgt. Pepper. Technically, VBCVB into Little Help From My Friends. It's subtle, for sure, but it's a bridging. My song is similar in verse structure: VBC-break-CVB. It was suggested to drop the piano break and use one chorus, which is actually a chorus-refrain. They suggested I not end the song with two verses, but the end isn't on a verse, but I end it on the refrain, so I'm a bit confused by the slavishness to a writing style. If somebody wouldn't mind letting me send them a copy of "This Christmastime," I'd like to know what you think, writing-wise. I fly solo, so I could get by with "A little help from my friends."

[Mark Kaufman]

It's a tricky thing...No, there are no rules...unless you're trying to sell the song. Then there are plenty, and the only ones allowed to break them are well-established artists.I write lots of different structural variations, and sometimes you can just keep those surprises coming. One person's viewpoint isn't all that useful...when several people say the same thing, then you probably have an issue.But the statement you quoted is in reference to but one structure, VCVCBC (and its variations). I would agree that is a very narrow view of songs.Why not start a thread on Peer to Peer and post a link to the song?

[mojobone]

At the end of the day, a song either works or it doesn't; maybe the reviewer simply thought your song was a little too long. I second Mark's motion.

[davewalton]

Aug 7, 2008, 2:23pm, jkellyjr wrote:As a Beatles fan, I know they used bridges all over. For example, Sgt. Pepper. There might be a little difference between them at that point in their career and the rest of us at this point in our career. I think at that time that it's safe to say that they were already "discovered"... they could pretty much do whatever they wanted. I'd bet that after selling millions and millions of CD's you'll be able to put bridges wherever you want!

[Mark Kaufman]

Aug 7, 2008, 6:49pm, davewalton wrote:I'd bet that after selling millions and millions of CD's you'll be able to put bridges wherever you want! OMG...this post made me realize that I actually do have a bridge to sell you.Bridges for sale. Verses and choruses too.

[jkellyjr]

So maybe I'm not necessarily Getting Better All The Time, as far as Taxi is concerned. Oh, and Mark, I've got a chorus of boos for that bridge joke. Good as it was, tho.

[sgs4u]

Aug 7, 2008, 9:50pm, jkellyjr wrote:So maybe I'm not necessarily Getting Better All The Time, as far as Taxi is concerned. Oh, and Mark, I've got a chorus of boos for that bridge joke. Good as it was, tho. If you even wondered a little out loud about the advice Taxi gave you, you are most definitely getting better all the time. You simply have to keep in mind, you are handing songs over to a service that has predecided what their clients are looking for. You don't need to heed Taxi's rules. It's not the only way to write great songs, but it's the only way thru the gates of Taxi. Bridges matter. Especially over troubled waters. Why would ya wanna put a bridge where it doesn't belong? If you've written a "bridge before a 1st chorus, just chop it down and make it way shorter, like only 1 or 2 lines, and then call it a pre-chorus or climb or lift. Mark's jokes are indeed as lame as his drum tracks used to be. He's getting better all the time too! We all are.

[jkellyjr]

In case anyone wants to get scholarly, here are the lyrics with the alleged bridge over troubled writer: This Christmastime(Words and music by John Kelly Jr. Copyright 2007)Christmas is here again and I don’t know what to sendthat I haven’t done before.Flipped through the catalogs, shopped on the Weband thought there’s got to be something more.(Bridge)Well, it’s not that those things aren’t nice,and some were substantial,but what I want for you this yearis not so financial.Your hearts are on my mind This Christmastime.(Chorus/refrain)This Christmastime … I’m looking everywhereThis Christmastime … To show you how much I careThis Christmastime … But it might take a miracleThis Christmastime … Because it has to be so special It’s been a hard year, we can’t deny This Christmastime.(Break: piano, guitar)(Chorus/refrain)This Christmastime … I’m looking everywhereThis Christmastime … To show you how much I careThis Christmastime … But it might take a miracleThis Christmastime … Because it has to be so specialYour love is on my mind This Christmastime.(Verse)Christmas is here again, and suddenly what to sendcame to me in my dreamI dreamed I saw love descend and raise up the hearts of men,and it crushed the hate machine(Verse/refrain)And when I awoke, I had a rhyme and a reasonand what they invoke will be my gift for the season.Your peace is on my mind This Christmastime.Yes, your peace is on my mind This Christmastime.

[davewalton]

Aug 7, 2008, 10:02pm, sgs4u wrote:You simply have to keep in mind, you are handing songs over to a service that has predecided what their clients are looking for. I think you might have the "tail wagging the dog" in that example. Remember the "French Laundry Detergent" thing? I submitted through Taxi and also through another source. "What they wanted" was the same for both sources I submitted through. Not to minimize Taxi's importance, but I don't think Taxi tells Sony BMG et al what kind of music their artists will be getting. Quote:Why would ya wanna put a bridge where it doesn't belong? If you've written a "bridge before a 1st chorus, just chop it down and make it way shorter, like only 1 or 2 lines, and then call it a pre-chorus or climb or lift. Yep, yep, yep. I was thinking about "day jobs" when I read this. How many people, say bank tellers, attempt to take as many liberties on the job as the president of the bank? It's no secret that a bank teller doesn't have that power to wield. Somehow in music, we do that same thing but we call it "creativity". If they need us more than we need them, we can put the bridge anywhere. If we need them more than they need us... better put the bridge more or less where it's expected then be creative within that structure.

[sgs4u]

Aug 8, 2008, 7:03am, davewalton wrote:Aug 7, 2008, 10:02pm, sgs4u wrote:You simply have to keep in mind, you are handing songs over to a service that has predecided what their clients are looking for. I think you might have the "tail wagging the dog" in that example. Remember the "French Laundry Detergent" thing? I submitted through Taxi and also through another source. "What they wanted" was the same for both sources I submitted through. Not to minimize Taxi's importance, but I don't think Taxi tells Sony BMG et al what kind of music their artists will be getting. Dave, I wrote the post too late last nite. Thanks for clearing it up.What I meant to say, is more about the fact that you have to give the client what they're expecting. In this case your client is Taxi, and their understanding of the end user client is looking for. And jkelly jr, if you want to email me an mp3 to check out, I'll be glad to for ya. Send it to enrg@shaw.ca