On Target But Not Forwarded?

[trocat]

Wow, I guess I opened a can of worms on this topic! It's all good. I do appreciate the replies and comments! No hard feelings from any of you. I know you are trying to help me understand the process and the perseverance it takes to succeed. I think were it comes from for me and maybe others reading this, is that we are paying a fee to get the listings, or "membership" if you will and five bucks each to submit a song, critique or not. That's what Taxi provides (and yes I know, lot's of other help for song writers, which I try to absorb. I've been to two Taxi Road Rallies '98 & '99!). I know that, and that's why I'm here. But what's hard to swallow sometimes is the fact that the songs are getting returned because the lyrics are "cliche" or "that's been said in a 1000 other songs, say something new". Yet many of the songs we all hear on major radio today, that become hits, are saying the same thing, nothing new. I'm talking lyrics now, not music. I'm a rock guy so here are a few current examples in that vain of music:Buck Cherry - I'm SorryThis song is a guy telling his wife/girlfriend that he' sorry for things he said ( How many times has that been done?)Gavin Degraw - I'm In Love With a GirlThis song is about a guy who's totally in love with a girl(Imaging that, huh) Hooky music but lyrically, nothing newDaughtry - Over You A song about a guy getting over past love(Again, great music but nothing really new here lyrically)Don't get me wrong, I think those are well produced songs but what I am getting at, are songs being returned for the lyrics not being "up to snuff". The reason I posted about this topic was because of the returns I was getting with those types of comments when songs like that, whether it's been said before or not, still have potential to work for a lister or be a hit. I just feel that if it hits the target, send it and the lister decide if the lyrics work or not. I am about to leave for a summer vacation tomorrow but I will. post some my return examples with critiques soon.My comments about pacifying came from what seems like a pattern in my submissions. 6 returns to 1 forward from about 32 submissions. And the fact that all but one of the forwards I received were to music companies that showed nothing when searched online. It was more of an observation, not an accusation! I work in the web business so I'm a bit conditioned that every business should have info out there about what they do. Regardless if they don't want to be contacted...just leave the phone numbers and email links off the web page. At least someone like me(us), who found out they had a song forward to them could look up more about what they do and who they've work with. Basically, get info on what accomplishments the company has made and be prepared if you get the call. Sometimes it's not just about the deal, it's about working with people that are on the same page as you. I hope this make some sense and wasn't to babbling (it's late and I'm tired). Thanks again for all the replies!Troy Castellanowww.myspace.com/troycastellano

[trocat]

Ok, I know I said I'm tired but I couldn't sleep with posting one example, so here's an example of what I was talking about.Listing DescGreat AAA ARTISTS with "brilliant/hit songs" are again sought by a Canadian Indie Music Company with major int'l publishing and distribution affiliations. Musically, think along the lines of Coldplay, the Fray, U2, Snow Patrol, John Mayer, the Goo Goo Dolls - that range. They're interested in releasing/licensing full artist albums and/or single song recordings internationally for film/TV projects. Mid to up-tempo songs only -- no ballads. You don't have to have a full CD in order to submit, but it'd be a big plus. They want to find exceptional artists to market to the world -- via record distribution and film/TV/media projects. If already forwarded for S070723AA, please do not submit to this listing. Songs must be Broadcast Quality (excellent sounding home recordings are OK). Please submit two to three songs online or per CD, include bio/photo/lyrics. Song: No Cure - On Target but returnedCritique"Your vocal and music performance sounds expressive, however, I have the feeling I've heard similar sentiments expressed in nearly identical fashion too many times before. It also feels to me you're relying a bit too heavily on rather obvious sounding rhymes, and I think a more conversational tone would actually sound a little more appealing"Song - Then I Kiss You Goodbye - On Target but returnedThere doesn't seem to be anything wrong with the performance or arrangement, but the lyrical theme and imagery do seem very predictable. I actually crave to hear a bit more of your own unique personality shine through in the narrative. I think it would also help if you were able to paint even more descriptive mental pictures with the imagery in the song.BTW, Then I Kiss You Goodbye is meant to be a duet. It's about the departure and homecoming of a loved one. Whether it's one of our troops or someone who's away from their family often. It will be retracked with duet vocals soon!TroySongs are on: www.myspace.com/troycastellano

[sgs4u]

Hi Troy, thanks for taking this so well. Most people who start a rant, like to go on about it a while, before they decide to be friendly. These are established artist's songs you've quoted to us. Usually part of why they get signed, is because they write very good songs. If you were an artist, on a label, maybe your songs' lyrics WOULD cut the mustard. Unfortunately, the examples you've given us, don't help prove your point, because you're not in the same UNIQUE situation, those artists are in. You're submitting songs to Taxi. It's different. I'll explain.A Label wants an act to write their own songs. The label, manager and hopefully the artist, can make more money that way. But when an artist isn't capable of writing 12 KILLER tunes, the manager or label will start looking for outside writer's tunes. That's where you & Taxi come in, hopefully. Your songs have to be better than what that artist can put on his own record. The record company or management has to believe that your songs, even tho you will get the writer's share, will make them more money. If you're the writer, the artist and label can't earn the money from your songwriting points (and that's a very substantial income stream, when a tune is a hit, it's like the pot of gold at...), and only maybe the publishing points. So it's a gamble for labels to even use outside writers' tunes, unless they are "out of this world" better than the artist's own tunes, really something special. That something special, is usually going to be in the lyrics. So if your lyrics aren't better than lyrics the artist him/herself can write, what's the point of them using your song, over a self-penned tune? Taxi screeners hope to find that perfect song! The people doing the listing want to find that perfect song, from Taxi's stable as well. Everyone wants you or me to write and submit the perfect song for them. So Taxi screeners look diligently for songs with the highest possible standards of songwriting, because the songs they forward, MUST BE UNDENIABLY, a cut above. THEY MUST BE EXTREMELY GREAT SONGS, and usually even better written, than the artist themselves can supply. That's why these listings appear. The artist doesn't have enough great songs. SO TAXI WANTS/NEEDS BETTER SONGS. and it usually starts with a fabulous lyric. I sure hope that helps. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So I just read your last post, which wasn't there before I started writing this. Another wrinkle to explain, I guess. no problem. A listing that says someone is looking for a AAA act with BRILLIANT HIT songs, is going to be looking for artist chops, and songwriting chops, that are better or newer or fresher than anything "out there." Everyone wants their product to be a cut above, so that they can compete in the marketplace. So once again, songs without FABULOUS lyrics, are going to suffer the same fate. They won't get forwarded as often as songs that have EVERYTHING. Jun 20, 2008, 10:03pm, trocat wrote:...I'm a rock guy so here are a few current examples in that vain of music:Buck Cherry - I'm SorryThis song is a guy telling his wife/girlfriend that he' sorry for things he said ( How many times has that been done?)Gavin Degraw - I'm In Love With a GirlThis song is about a guy who's totally in love with a girl(Imaging that, huh) Hooky music but lyrically, nothing newDaughtry - Over You A song about a guy getting over past love(Again, great music but nothing really new here lyrically)...Don't get me wrong, I think those are well produced songs but what I am getting at, are songs being returned for the lyrics not being "up to snuff". Thanks again for all the replies!Troy Castellanomyspace.com/troycastellano

[bc]

Quote:A Label wants an act to write their own songs. The label, manager and hopefully the artist, can make more money that way. But when an artist isn't capable of writing 12 KILLER tunes, the manager or label will start looking for outside writer's tunes. That's where you & Taxi come in, hopefully. Your songs have to be better than what that artist can put on his own record. The record company or management has to believe that your songs, even tho you will get the writer's share, will make them more money. If you're the writer, the artist and label can't earn the money from your songwriting points (and that's a very substantial income stream, when a tune is a hit, it's like the pot of gold at...), and only maybe the publishing points. So it's a gamble for labels to even use outside writers' tunes, unless they are "out of this world" better than the artist's own tunes, really something special. That something special, is usually going to be in the lyrics. So if your lyrics aren't better than lyrics the artist him/herself can write, what's the point of them using your song, over a self-penned tune? Troy, Steve's post is spot on. Take Steve's scenario and make it personal. You're cutting your album in the studio and your good friend producer says, "dude, you've only got 8 good songs, you need to replace songs' 9, 10, 11 with something better." So you put your ego aside and start the sifting process to find some tunes. My guess is you're going to hyper picky about any song that presumes to replace one of your babies. Especially considering the publishing and mechanical royalty stream. And remember, all those giving advice here, hate getting a return on a pretty good song just as much as you do. Your's truly included. b

[Casey H]

Great AAA ARTISTS with "brilliant/hit songs" are again sought by a Canadian Indie Music Company with major int'l publishing and distribution affiliations...TroyI'm not sure if you are familiar with "the bar" which is a term for how high the standards are for a forward. When a listing has a very high bar, it really has to be nearly flawless with a killer hook and outstanding lyrics. The above sentence says it all. This was an ultra high-bar listing. You could have a really darn good song in many ways and not get the forward.If this had been a film/TV listing, in many cases, it would pass because they lean a little more toward overall sound & sounds like, mood & feel, engineering, production, etc. One thing we have to do to survive is NEVER compare ourselves to what's on the radio or in the charts as far as songwriting quality... e.g. "it's as good as or better than the crap on the radio" doesn't help even though often true. The double standard is real. New artists and songwriters generally have to be leaps and bounds better to get accepted. There might be exceptions such as if you were shtuping the producers sister , but it's usually true.I don't know if you mentioned this on this thread, but very important is: What are your goals? Getting signed as a label artist is a long tough road with small odds. That doesn't mean you shouldn't go for the dream, but willingness to take feedback and adapt is critical. Pitching for film/TV is a nice way to generate income, especially if you think in terms of 5 years down the road for a nice steady income stream (see other threads on the 5 year plan). But there too, you may need to adapt.I know this isn't easy. To be successful, folks have to get away from the "I'm OK, they are not OK" way of thinking. HTH Casey

[squids]

Well, I suppose I'm gonna clutter the landscape even mo (sigh) and Troy's gone on vacation so it'll fall on absent ears but this is my pet peeve so here goes! Taxi wanted 'unique' on these listings. That's what they imply when they use the word 'fresh'. That means no one else has done that take on it. I've noticed people have a tendency to hide their apples under the cart, so to speak, and keep the best parts of themselves hidden, which is absolutely fine in a social setting but not necessarily in music. It's one of our jobs to represent those who don't have a voice (imho) so we'd betta say it fo 'em like we mean it. We can have great production and it'll get through the taxi gauntlet once in a while. But if it's got lyrics, you can bet your singer better rock (which you can totally pull off) and they betta be singing lyrics that grab them by the throat and get their attention. We're a visual species, what can I say? Picture this (and this is jes a scenario, please, no screener PMs! hahah)Screener A comes in to work. He's got another business or two on the side and while he tries to stay compartmentalized and keep his mind on the job, it's probably going to drift a bit to the latest crisis he's got going on, especially if the song's not on target or not up to what it implies it could be. That's life. He's probably gonna screen for about 3 hours. Ever tried that, Troy? A friend of mine, Steve Davis from here, called me one night and told me he did. He went on myspace, punched in 'rock' and then jes started playing whatever came up. He said he lasted 10 minutes before he wanted to off himself. Now, not everyone is gifted at screening (po baby Steve, hahahahha) but let's say our Screener dude is. So he grabs his coffee, slaps his headphones on and........2-1/2 hours later, he sighs, finishes up the critique he's working on, punches up the next tune and BAM! There you are. You really wanna BE there, ya know? So yeah, lyrics matter and singing 'em like they're absolutely the last words you'll say on this earth would really help too. You've got 3 mins or so (according to ongoing Taxi edict of writing, anyway, to which I say hahahahahahhaah) to prove that you're audiogenic. Meaning your soul transfers to an mp3 via your voice, (jes like some folks are photogenic) and this is actually YOU singing to HIM in the room right THEN, not another half-assed replication of somebody like he's been listening to for most of his interminable work shift (yet another po baby).Get the urgency yet? And it's like that with everybody.....the screener, the deal guy, the suits you gotta get through......every one of those is your opp to sell yourself so you can do what you love fo a livin. So yeah, lyrics matter and so does how you sing them. Sorry, this is jes my pet peeve about lyricists and singers.....must.learn.critical.thinking.skills.Pet peeve rant over. Sorry for all the space I took up and for speaking for the screeners. And Troy, you can totally do this.

[hummingbird]

Good post Squidy.!! I like the imagery of the screener at 2.30 hours with his coffee, just begging to hear something that will knock his socks off. I could use a little of that kind of critical thinking myself. thanksH

[heinsite]

squids--geeze-us did you say it well. now if we all (or me more specifically...) can just DO all that...hell, was up at 4 am, couldn't sleep, came out to my "room" and rewrote the lyrics to a tune, been doing quite allot of that lately-- they were NOT crap to begin with, but i do believe that ethereal verbage has it's place--but the trick is to tie it to the right genre. but yep, more visual indeed--as i repeat your words up there, visual beings, visual beings, visual beings.....damned straight. now, where's my glasses???xoxoxowarren

[liamkelly]

Jun 20, 2008, 10:35pm, trocat wrote:Ok, I know I said I'm tired but I couldn't sleep with posting one example, so here's an example of what I was talking about.Listing DescGreat AAA ARTISTS with "brilliant/hit songs" are again sought by a Canadian Indie Music Company with major int'l publishing and distribution affiliations. Musically, think along the lines of Coldplay, the Fray, U2, Snow Patrol, John Mayer, the Goo Goo Dolls - that range. They're interested in releasing/licensing full artist albums and/or single song recordings internationally for film/TV projects. Mid to up-tempo songs only -- no ballads. You don't have to have a full CD in order to submit, but it'd be a big plus. They want to find exceptional artists to market to the world -- via record distribution and film/TV/media projects. If already forwarded for S070723AA, please do not submit to this listing. Songs must be Broadcast Quality (excellent sounding home recordings are OK). Please submit two to three songs online or per CD, include bio/photo/lyrics. Song: No Cure - On Target but returnedCritique"Your vocal and music performance sounds expressive, however, I have the feeling I've heard similar sentiments expressed in nearly identical fashion too many times before. It also feels to me you're relying a bit too heavily on rather obvious sounding rhymes, and I think a more conversational tone would actually sound a little more appealing"Song - Then I Kiss You Goodbye - On Target but returnedThere doesn't seem to be anything wrong with the performance or arrangement, but the lyrical theme and imagery do seem very predictable. I actually crave to hear a bit more of your own unique personality shine through in the narrative. I think it would also help if you were able to paint even more descriptive mental pictures with the imagery in the song.BTW, Then I Kiss You Goodbye is meant to be a duet. It's about the departure and homecoming of a loved one. Whether it's one of our troops or someone who's away from their family often. It will be retracked with duet vocals soon!TroySongs are on: www.myspace.com/troycastellanoTroyThanks for perservering with this thread and for posting the listing and the crit I am NO screener but will give you my 2c to do with what you will. I only listened to No Cure and I liked it. Good job! In terms of the artists referenced, I got the Goo Goo Dolls. None of the rest. Not important - sometimes listings are wide in scope.Referring specifically to your concerns about lyrics, I think that perhaps the most pertinent part of the screener's comments about your lyrics is not that they've heard these sentiments before. But that they've often heard them expressed in the exactly the same way.You posted: Yet many of the songs we all hear on major radio today, that become hits, are saying the same thing, nothing new. I'm talking lyrics now,....and that may be true. The themes are all the same: she left me, I left her, I can't have her and so forth. But the 'brilliant hit songs' (which is what this listing is asking for) nearly always have an unusual lyrical twist to a familiar theme. I don't think that the lyrics of 'No Cure' described the 'where did we go wrong, why did she hurt me' scenario well enough to ascend the 'brilliant hit songs' bar that the listing is specifically asking for.Good song. But maybe not brilliant hit song.2cLiam

[squids]

Jun 22, 2008, 2:01pm, heinsite wrote:squids--geeze-us did you say it well. now if we all (or me more specifically...) can just DO all that...hell, was up at 4 am, couldn't sleep, came out to my "room" and rewrote the lyrics to a tune, been doing quite allot of that lately-- they were NOT crap to begin with, but i do believe that ethereal verbage has it's place--but the trick is to tie it to the right genre. but yep, more visual indeed--as i repeat your words up there, visual beings, visual beings, visual beings.....damned straight. now, where's my glasses???xoxoxowarren warren, I know your pain, dude! Studying arabic poetry (Der Llama is makin' me sweat, which I totally love) and writing, rewriting, struggling to find a way to marry what he's created (which is so cool) and still make punchy lines. Ack! hahahahahaha