Playing ahead of the beat

[trentoliphant]

Thanks all for your replies on this issue. I was getting pretty frustrated today because I was trying to put together a track and the parts just weren't lining up and it was obvious (it was the opening for March of the Toys from Babes in Toyland - three trumpets playing in triads).Allen:I am usually just recording from a click track when I put the piano part down and then I add the percussion later with the other tracks. Maybe having a subdivision of the beat would help me stay on top a bit better.Mojo, Tim and DevinI'm a bit confused about the latency - wouldn't that make me behind the beat? I definitely will check it out.Mojobone:I'll check out that book I can definitely improve my "grooveness".Stan & Mark:With quantize the biggest problems come when I have to quantize to 8ths (and especially 16ths) - sometimes it shifts things the wrong way because I am so off.SteveI have broken a few piano strings in my life. A good friend of mine jokingly asked me once if I could play with sensitivity. I actually don't play many live gigs - I seem to be able to get into the groove with a band, but I am doing the studio work all myself. Seeing the midi notes so far off the beat is what brought it to my attention. I think I am getting better at it so maybe you are right that it won't be a problem in a year.Thanks again for all your help.Trent

[mazz]

Trent,I don't know what DAW you use but the one I use, Digital Performer, has strength settings in the quantize menu. If you set the strength less than 100%, it pulls the notes toward the grid but not all the way towards the grid. Ofentimes I'll use 85%, which keeps the groove but fixes some of the major beats of the bar and makes things a bit more in time but not mechanical.Maybe you could see if your software has a similar setting.Good luck!Mazz

[jazzstan]

Trent,A number of years ago I started doing a little exercise whenever I was in the car with a radio or other music ... when a song would start, I would keep time on the steering wheel with my left hand and then turn the radio off (or the volume totally off) for a few seconds - still keeping the tempo - and then bring the radio back on and see how close I still was to the beat. It would be easy to set up something similar in your DAW. And yes, even with that I'm still often adjusting my timing in my current recordings. Previet, maybe I'm just Russian? Dosvadanya!

[rld]

After reading this thread I'm unable to conclude if its the OP's playing that is off or if it has something to do with his recording setup.Once that is determined, a fix could be addressed.

[ernstinen]

A "REAL" drummer will naturally ebb and flow a bit. I find on rock pieces, if I quantize the whole track, on things like drum fills going into a solo etc., it feels very weird to me if the drum part doesn't speed up a little bit. Most drummers would do that, and then pull it back on the downbeat of the solo, for instance.What I do in DP is quantize drum parts, especially kick and snare. A lot of time, I WON'T quantize things like hi hat, ride cymbal, and toms. I play them in real time, and it just FEELS better that way to me.Finally, I'll move time around manually on certain parts, like in "quantize" type in +5 ticks if you want the part to be a little behind the beat, and -5 ticks (or more) if you want the part to be in front of the beat. I do that a LOT in orchestral music. It takes time, but in the end will make the tracks sound more human.One "real" drum fill that has always bugged me is the snare fill going into the chorus of "In The Name Of Love" by U2. It sounds to me that it almost slows down, and it makes me grit my teeth everytime I hear it! Another "oldie" that also bugs me is the chorus in the Stones' "Get Off Of My Cloud." I can't tell if old Charlie is slowing down, keeping the tempo, or the rest of the band is rushing. Yikes! Ern

[devin]

Nov 12, 2008, 1:17pm, ernstinen wrote:A lot of time, I WON'T quantize things like hi hat, ride cymbal, and toms. I play them in real time, and it just FEELS better that way to me.A friend of mine has just high hats in his small studio...he does midi drums, but tracks live hats, to give him the feel. Normally mic'ing up a full kit means dealing with the hats bleeding into everything else, but in his case, it's the only thing Nov 12, 2008, 1:17pm, ernstinen wrote:One "real" drum fill that has always bugged me is the snare fill going into the chorus of "In The Name Of Love" by U2. It sounds to me that it almost slows down, and it makes me grit my teeth everytime I hear it! Another "oldie" that also bugs me is the chorus in the Stones' "Get Off Of My Cloud." I can't tell if old Charlie is slowing down, keeping the tempo, or the rest of the band is rushing. Yikes! Ern It's like that on the master? Dang! I thought it was the dropouts on my 8 track. Let me fast forward the tape for 10 minutes so I can hear that again, just to be sure....(Poor big 'ol 8 track tapes...not good for anything...at least my CD collection keeps my cold beverages from leaving water stains on the desk...)

[Mark Kaufman]

Nov 11, 2008, 11:50pm, trentoliphant wrote:Stan & Mark:With quantize the biggest problems come when I have to quantize to 8ths (and especially 16ths) - sometimes it shifts things the wrong way because I am so off.Trent, if things get too wiggy between 8ths and 16ths, here's another trick you can try: slow the tempo as much as you like, play the part at this slower speed, quantize (it should work better now), then change the tempo back to the original speed.

[ernstinen]

Nov 12, 2008, 2:06pm, devin wrote:A friend of mine has just high hats in his small studio...he does midi drums, but tracks live hats, to give him the feel. Normally mic'ing up a full kit means dealing with the hats bleeding into everything else, but in his case, it's the only thing Yup, I've tracked drums with digital drums playing certain parts, and having the drummer (with a click track) play real hi hat, ride, crashes etc.But hi hat is REAL hard to isolate on a kit. I've seen certain engineers put a plexiglass baffle between the snare mic and the hi hat mic. It makes it very hard for the drummer to not hit the baffle, or the mics.The "cure?" Record like they recorded John Bonham, if you have a big room, and use THREE mics: One on the kick, and two overheads. But you have to have a GREAT sounding, balanced kit to do that.I know that The Beatles recorded "Helter Skelter" in a VERY small room with everybody playing at the same time, except for the vocal. That sounds HUGE! I don't know how they did that. Playing really loudly, with a lot of bleed, I guess.Ern

[mazz]

The three mic drum sound works best if you have:1. A great, perfectly tuned drum kit.2. A great, perfectly sober drummer.3. A great, not partially deaf engineer with great mics and mic technique.4. A great song.5. A great arrangement.3 out of 5 should get you pretty close!!! Cheers! Mazz

[ernstinen]

Nov 12, 2008, 7:01pm, mazz wrote:The three mic drum sound works best if you have:1. A great, perfectly tuned drum kit.2. A great, perfectly sober drummer.3. A great, not partially deaf engineer with great mics and mic technique.4. A great song.5. A great arrangement.3 out of 5 should get you pretty close!!! Cheers! MazzHaHaha! Mazz, you kill me! I wish we could'a talked more at the "After Party!"But you're right. I would say a great kit, a great room, a great engineer, and a great drummer. The drummer could have a few shots, though! I MAY add a snare mic to the equation, but then you get into the problem of too much hi hat.If anyone wants to watch Bonham at his best, get the DVD from a few years ago of live Zep. Talk about a great musician, a great kit, and only a few microphones. Whew!But, as a studio recording, I have to go when Zep went into the ABBA studio in Sweden and recorded "In Through The Out Door." THAT room sound just freaked me out when I first heard it!Of course, most bands can't rent a room with 40' ceilings, but it IS possible --- I've done it. If you have THAT kind of drummer with perfect time and technique, FIND a way to get your gear into a BIG room and put the drum condenser mics 20+ feet above the kit --- you won't be sorry! Close mic the kick, and maybe the snare, and let the drummer do his thing. Magic CAN happen ---Ern