Playing ahead of the beat

[trentoliphant]

I don't know if this is really a technology question, but I have found as I am doing more and more midi recording that I am always playing ahead of the beat. This makes it extremely difficult to use loops or EZDrummer or Stylus for my drums and percussion because it is way off unless I go in and fix it. I can't even effectively quantize because it is not always consistent. What I find myself doing is going in and manually shifting sections at a time to line up better. (I like to do it in sections so it still gets some variation in lining up with the beat).Anyone have any thoughts on what I can do to help with this problem? (You can go ahead and say practice playing on the beat - any tips on that?)Trent

[devin]

Great question Trent...I'm looking forward to the answers from the pros!For me, if there is something funky in the beat, I'll mute it and just use a click for that part. Then I'll re-enable the beat after I track...helps keep me in time on those weird parts.Most of the time though, I have to really get into the groove, so I know when to be slightly ahead, behind, or right on. I need to work on this alot more myself...

[mojobone]

Tap dance lessons and marching band really helped me in terms of internalizing tempi. Probably the best commercial product I've found is the book Bass Grooves, by Ed Friedland. It has exercises where you vocalize subdivisions of the beat in time with a drum machine beat. You'll need a CD player and any sort of drum machine and it helps if you have a recording device so you can evaluate your progress. I recommend it to everybody, not just bass players, cuz it'll improove your groove.

[allends]

Nov 11, 2008, 2:30pm, mojobone wrote:Tap dance lessons and marching band really helped me in terms of internalizing tempi.Hey Trent Buddy,I heard you mention this at the rally. Mojo's comments are very helpful, but I am unclear about your recording process. Are your drum tracks all laid out ahead of time or are you just relying on a click track? Whenever I use a simple click without adding a back beat for at least the first few bars I have the same problem as you. For me, it's a lot easier to really internalize the groove when there's more rhythmic information in my click track. For those times when I have already sequenced my drums, I can get into the groove without any problem. Hope This Helps,Allen

[mojobone]

Hmm, maybe what you need is some zero-latency monitoring, on further consideration...

[jazzstan]

Hmmm, I'd think if you set the quantize at the right increment for resolution it should pull most things back in line ...e.g. if you're playing quarter notes, a 1/4 note resolution should force the notes to play spot on -- although it may display the original and not the "new" quantized values on your midi editor screen.

[Mark Kaufman]

I think your overall answer lies in quantize settings...depending on your DAW, you should be able to set it up where you can be inaccurate when you play, yet still have the system peg your beat right on the line.Sometimes....you want to play just ahead of the beat. I find myself turning "snap" on and off constantly.

[flyingtadpole]

Nov 11, 2008, 3:27pm, mojobone wrote:Hmm, maybe what you need is some zero-latency monitoring, on further consideration...Definitely, pursue this one. It affects me, and I KNOW I can be perfectly on the beat.My system is older 3.5mHz, 2496 card, only 1GB (yes I know, time to expand), midi in/out to my industrial keyboard. If I run the click/metronome and the sounds direct out of my keyboard rather than via VST I'm spot on. If I'm trying to use sampled sounds, I'm slightly out. Doesn't show up obviously unless I'm really moving or I have too many VSTs plugged in, but it's there. It's a latency issue for me, and I need a hardware fix (I know!)

[devin]

Nov 11, 2008, 3:27pm, mojobone wrote:Hmm, maybe what you need is some zero-latency monitoring, on further consideration...That's a good point Mojo!Trent, you can try this quick test:- set up a sharp midi note...rim shot, closed hh or something. Put 4 in a row on the beat.- monitor the click with headphones on, and set up a microphone- make sure you're not monitoring what's going into the mic in the headphones, and gently place the headphones near/on the mic capsule- record the clicks, then visually see if they line up inside your system with the original midi notes. You can also just patch out and in from your A/D, but you want to make sure your headphones are getting the signal fast enough, so I'd do it this way.This might help rule out, or reveal latency.My original rig had Sonar 2 on it, and the latency would accumulate based on how many tracks were in there.

[sgs4u]

As a lifelong piano player, playing ahead of the beat has both been my curse, and a signature part of my playing and reputation. I play loud, forcefully and excitedly, in bands. When I record sessions, I usually do the same thing. except for pretty ballads, or meditative stuff. However, over a 35 year career, I have smoothed out my excitement into a more relaxed ability to "groove," in the right pocket. In my twenties, me and a buddy used to time my pushiness. I was a pretty consistent 30 - 55 milliseconds ahead of the beat, always anticipating. Now that I'm 48 years old, I still time my playing ahead of the beat, and it's down to 10 - 20 ms ahead. It's rare that you want staccato keyboard parts to behind the groove anyway, IMHO. Pads yes, but not spikes. Playing on top of the beat, was never a thing that caused me to lose gigs, or not be able to groove with a song, provided I had a clear click track to adhere to, and some kind of delay technology to add later, to get my tracks to relax. If I'd have been a poor schmuck who couldn't keep up to a beat, well then my musical skills and gigs might not ever have developed nearly as much, because there was little technology could do 20 years ago to help someone who couldn't keep up with a drummer (unless you delay the whole bed track, just in headphones.) However Trent, now that you are aware of this tendency, I will go out on a limb to predict that by this time next year, you're no longer going to have this problem. It's going to fade away, just because you've put your attention on it, and you intend to change it.