Co-writing

[suzdoyle]

Great ideas on this thread! I would add that collaborating is all about living in the YES! of creativity first, and being willing to explore other points of view as the song evolves.I lead workshops now and then in "on the spot songwriting," in which I help groups of people co-write ("write" meaning "make up" as opposed to "writing down") songs on the fly. It is amazing to see what comes up when people are willing to jump in and surf the creative flow.YEE-Hah!Ahem. Pardon me. Got a bit enthused there. It is important to figure out what your learning and processing styles are (e.g. kinesthetic/ auditory/ visual), and to do the same for your potential collaborators, because that will help you understand how to better communicate with each other musically.And, it's always good at the outset of any collaboration to have clear agreements about what your expectations, if any, might be related to the project being worked on (e.g. time-tables, how to resolve differences of opinion about things, etc.)In my experience, collaborating really stretches your wings in all kinds of ways, and ends up bringing a more expansive view of things to your song -- plus, it is a heckuva lot of fun!! (Which in my book, is what this composing thing is all about).Just my two cents. Suz

[jchitty]

Sept 5, 2008, 3:27pm, claire wrote:I'm not good at responding to posts after i've read them, so I'll just say that cowriting can be an amazing experience - especially if you do it in real time and not just via the Internet. When it's a good connection and the chemistry is there, the energy level is amazing and you look at each other afterwards and say "omigod, look what we just did!". Yes, it's very sensual. Cowriting is also like blind dating, though, and if the chemistry isn't there or if it's too much like work or if you piss each other off, it's not worth pursuing that particular cowriter (for me, at least). I've written with a lot of people and now have pretty much narrowed it down to three regulars. I can't deal with writing long distance via emails because nobody is breathing. There are these annoying lags between sending out a "waddya think" and getting back something that bears absolutely no resemblance to what you're thinking, etc. For me it's a pain in the rear.I heard someone once say that writing songs is like getting naked in front of a stranger. If you want the song to be amazing, you can't have any shame or hold anything back. In that sense, cowriting can really be intimidating because you've got to allow yourself to be vulnerable. But ahhh, the end results can be amazing.Nashville is, of course, a town of cowriters. There are very few pro writers who write alone. When you ask a question like why would a staff writer want to write with someone who isn't signed, the answer is often because the unsigned writer brought a phenomenal idea to the staff writer. Bring me an idea. If I'm signed to a publisher I can write with other staff writers but I'll write with you if you bring me a killer idea (not me personally, it's just what gets them interested in you - that and the fact that they listen to your songs and realize you're not some dork who can't put a song together).I had a meeting with a local publisher recently and he asked me what I wanted (from him). I said I wanted him to set me up with some new cowriters, particularly staff writers. He was very honest when he said that it's really hard to get pro writers who are willing to write with folks at my level because writing is their livelihood. They make their living by writing songs. They don't have much free time and if they're going to look for someone new to write with, it's probably going to be another staff writer. Nothing personal, just business. It made sense to me because if I was a house painter looking for someone to help me paint a house, I probably wouldn't go to someone who paints still life oil paintings - I'd look for another experienced house painter. Maybe I've been doing this too long when being rejected starts to make sense to me!The upshot of my meeting was an open door with that publisher and he did set me up with two cowrites with other unsigned writers who are a step or two ahead of me in the holds department.Yes, there are obvious advantages to having two people pitching a song and as far as signing the song to a publisher, I'm of the opinion that 50% (or 25%) of something is worth better than 100% of nothing.Beyond all the logical and business reasons to cowrite, it all comes back to the magic of creating something that is better than it would have been if I'd written it alone. Give it a shot and see what you think ClaireHey, I think this is a great post, Claire...it's clear enough to me and chock full of information.

[davewalton]

Sept 5, 2008, 3:27pm, claire wrote:Beyond all the logical and business reasons to cowrite, it all comes back to the magic of creating something that is better than it would have been if I'd written it aloneI wish I could fit that whole great line on a t-shirt.

[hummingbird]

Sept 5, 2008, 12:26pm, cameron wrote: 2) Why would a publishing company promote a song they'll only make 1/2 as much on?The publishing company doesn't lose anything. The songwriters split their share of the deal, is all.As for co-writing in general... I co-write because it's going to take me somewhere I can't go on my own. Meaning, the creative contribution of my collaborator is a catalyst for developing a piece of music that would not be the same without their input.I have a difficulty with the "write up" principle... in that, if we're all suppose to "write up" there will be no one to "write down", right? So instead of looking for a list of credits from my co-writers, I think about whether their skills will complement mine, and whether the resulting track(s) might have commercial viability, and whether they will be fun to work with, have integrity, and are 'well-balanced' & informed about how the industry works.

[cameron]

Sept 5, 2008, 3:27pm, claire wrote:I heard someone once say that writing songs is like getting naked in front of a stranger. If you want the song to be amazing, you can't have any shame or hold anything back. In that sense, cowriting can really be intimidating because you've got to allow yourself to be vulnerable. But ahhh, the end results can be amazing. ClaireGreat post Claire... and your description of why pros prefer to write with pros makes perfect sense.I can see how being in the same room is all important, but maybe I'll check out the collaboration corner on this forum too. I'm not 100% sure that I want to go there just yet.We need a match.com for songwriters. I can see it now: Mildly talented writer of obscure and hard-to-categorize unforwarded material wants to get naked. Must love hooks. Cam

[cameron]

Sept 5, 2008, 5:04pm, hummingbird wrote:Sept 5, 2008, 12:26pm, cameron wrote: 2) Why would a publishing company promote a song they'll only make 1/2 as much on?The publishing company doesn't lose anything. The songwriters split their share of the deal, is all..That makes sense Vikki. I didn't think it through. I guess they only get 1/2 on a cowrite anyway (unless they both work for the same publisher).

[claire]

So instead of looking for a list of credits from my co-writers, I think about whether their skills will complement mine, and whether the resulting track(s) might have commercial viability, and whether they will be fun to work with, have integrity, and are 'well-balanced' & informed about how the industry works.You're absolutely right. I know a few people who have gotten that chance to "write up" with a pro and oddly enough, the end result wasn't as good as they'd expected and the experience wasn't as amazing as they'd expected. One of them felt intimidated, one of them felt left out, one of them felt no chemistry whatsoever. I've only had the chance once (with Jason Blume) and we actually did really well together. The song turned out to be something I'm proud to pitch, we used my whole first verse and lift lyrics, the chorus lyric was a real collaboration as was the second verse and lift, Jason wrote the bridge and he also did the melody. I didn't feel left out and the chemistry was there. It was a good experience. So yes, absolutely, writing with someone just because you think they can do something for you doesn't guarantee an amazing song. Which, of course, flies in the face of the latest twist on who we should write with...now they tell us we need to write with artists because that way the songs are going to get cut because the artist is the cowriter and he's surely going to record his own songs, thereby taking you along with him. Or her. There is no shortage of opinions in this town

[hummingbird]

Sept 5, 2008, 5:24pm, cameron wrote:Sept 5, 2008, 5:04pm, hummingbird wrote:The publishing company doesn't lose anything. The songwriters split their share of the deal, is all..That makes sense Vikki. I didn't think it through. I guess they only get 1/2 on a cowrite anyway (unless they both work for the same publisher). Let's look at a typical deal:writer:50% licencing,no publishing100% songwritingpublisher50% licencing100% publishingno songwritinglet's look at a typical deal with two writers:writers:50% licencing (25% each),no publishing100% songwriting (50% each)publisher50% licencing100% publishingno songwritingThus, the # of co-writers doesn't change the publishers share of the deal. Just so we're clear.

[cameron]

Hmmm, OK. Makes sense that there's only one publisher, no matter how many cowriters. What happens when two writers on the staff of two different publishers cowrite a songCameron

[cameron]

Sept 5, 2008, 5:40pm, claire wrote: I've only had the chance once (with Jason Blume) and we actually did really well together. The song turned out to be something I'm proud to pitch, we used my whole first verse and lift lyrics, the chorus lyric was a real collaboration as was the second verse and lift, Jason wrote the bridge and he also did the melody. I didn't feel left out and the chemistry was there. It was a good experience. That would be a great experience. So how does it work? Do you just sit in a room together and say, "well here's something I've been playing around with" and try to build on it, or do you start with a written outline of what kind of song you want to write, and then bounce themes, lyrics, etc. that fit it off each other? I guess every session is probably a bit different, I'm just trying to get a feel for the process.Anyone going on the Texas Songwriter's Cruise in February? I'm signed up and it might be interesting to try cowriting a song with someone there.Cameron