Need some Country feedback

[Casey H]

OK, Chits... I am very self-critical and how can I argue with someone who knows country as you do?? The story behind the song is based on the true story of my wife and I... But this is Aub's thread, so I'll tell that elsewhere.I think the thing we all have to remember is the double standard. New writers can't get songs through unless they walk on water. That's just the way it is whether it's through TAXI or elsewhere. As new writers, we get over-analyzed and scrutinized to death. Matto has mentioned on these boards some of the things they pick apart in lyrics... If I was on the inside track and presented that song to a producer or an artist, they might simply re-write some lyrics (for co-write) if everything else was there (e.g. a good hook)... Casey

[horacejesse]

We won't hijack the lad's thread.But I cannot help notice you have now thrown in the word "authentic." Before it was "the good stuff," now it is the "authentic stuff." How about authentic fried chicken and peach pie? Do you feel southerners have a near lock on those too? If I am eating pie and chicken I couldn't care less whether it is "authentic," or merely phony "good stuff."I spent about 11 or 12 summers in Kentucky with my grandparents as a kid. I don't know if this is enough to make my knowledge of southern life authentic or phony in your eyes. But I do know the opposite of authentic is phony. I saw southern weddings and the southern funeral of my grandfather. The main thing that made it southern was the wake, which I had never heard of before and considered pretty strange.I feel I have enough southern culture to not worry. But there must be country writers from New Hampshire on here, and this is for them. How about Iowa? That is a country life without the south. They slop hogs too, and go to bed with the chickens.You did make a sweeping generalization even if you were not trying to. That is what I am reacting to--not you--I like you quite well. It's your generalizartion that knocked the chip off my shoulder.Now I should say something about Aub's song. Problem is, I can't, because it would not play for me. It just sat there saying "done" and nothing would happen. That is a fairly common occurrence with my machine.I am not keen on the idea of critiquing naked lyrics without the music. I think it leads to errors in the critique that often would never have been mentioned if the music were present too.These family sentiments, though, are a big deal in country music, and he at least has come up with some good subject matter, to this whiteneck's way of thinking.

[jchitty]

Quote:We won't hijack the lad's thread.But I cannot help notice you have now thrown in the word "authentic." Before it was "the good stuff," now it is the "authentic stuff." How about authentic fried chicken and peach pie? Do you feel southerners have a near lock on those too? If I am eating pie and chicken I couldn't care less whether it is "authentic," or merely phony "good stuff."I spent about 11 or 12 summers in Kentucky with my grandparents as a kid. I don't know if this is enough to make my knowledge of southern life authentic or phony in your eyes. But I do know the opposite of authentic is phony. I saw southern weddings and the southern funeral of my grandfather. The main thing that made it southern was the wake, which I had never heard of before and considered pretty strange.I feel I have enough southern culture to not worry. But there must be country writers from New Hampshire on here, and this is for them. How about Iowa? That is a country life without the south. They slop hogs too, and go to bed with the chickens.You did make a sweeping generalization even if you were not trying to. That is what I am reacting to--not you--I like you quite well. It's your generalizartion that knocked the chip off my shoulder.Now I should say something about Aub's song. Problem is, I can't, because it would not play for me. It just sat there saying "done" and nothing would happen. That is a fairly common occurrence with my machine.I am not keen on the idea of critiquing naked lyrics without the music. I think it leads to errors in the critique that often would never have been mentioned if the music were present too.These family sentiments, though, are a big deal in country music, and he at least has come up with some good subject matter, to this whiteneck's way of thinking. I'll answer both you and Casey's thread in one post...that way, I don't take up too much thread time. First off, I agree with Casey about beginner's songs having to be perfect...that is the standard we are judged by....but wouldn't it be wonderful (if as you say) that they could see some possibilities instead of the flaws....(a co-write,whatever)....seems like TAXI says "no" too much of the time....now, that being said, I am not Mr. Laskow.....it's his company, and he has a reason for running it the way he does...however, from a member's standpoint, I sure would like to see it be more about saying 'yes' at least on stuff that could potentially be liked by some of the people he's fowarding it to....to me, this is a subjective biz...who's to say that someone on the other end wouldn't say, "I love this!" I think one reason why ML has to say no a lot is that we don't see what goes on behind the scenes...he's probably dealing with really tough task masters there as well.Horace, have you ever eaten at a Cracker Barrel outside of the Mason Dixon line? Terrible chicken! And peach cobbler???? Well, it seems to be non-existent on the menu after you cross over into Penn. You can't even get decent cornbread...hell, they put sugar in it up there, no self respecting Southerner would ever put sugar in their cornbread. You can't get real fried okra, only those tasteless nugget thingys, and they pronounce pecan pie like 'pee-can' pie up there And Gawd, we say "NawOrleans" like we're running the whole thing together, and my mother-in-law from Boston says, "New Or-leans." Okay, I'm kidding of course, but there are differences.I like you too, Horace. We are actually sort of different personalities...I can sugarcoat (it's my stupid Southern politeness, hehe) and you don't mince words.....we should be at odds with each other constantly, but I think you're a lot of fun. As long as you don't try to change me, I won't try to change you.I think you're getting me a bit wrong here....even in my original post I did say there are always exceptions to the rule....but if you look outside the Mason Dixon line, Texas, etc....do you really see that many people writing country? Yeah, there are always people such as yourself who love country with all your heart and soul and you want to write it. I think BC is from Michigan and writes good country....he's had a lot of success, and Nashville has people coming from all over the world to write country, but look at the majority of successful country writers.....they are Southern, have that perspective, know all the ins and outs of what it is to be Southern...that's what I mean by authentic....I know you're not phony......you have tapped into that authenticity by really loving what you do....so yeah, and that sense, you wouldn't have to be born a Southerner. Why don't we approach the debate this way....we can compile a list of non-Southerners who write great country music....you got a list?Here's the first one of the list:Jeffery Steele....he's from California. BTW, it has been said that no Southerner leaves a funeral until the last clod of dirt is thrown on the casket.

[matto]

Quote:I think you're wrong here, Case. I was actually struck with how 'country' Marry Me does sound...and this from a danged Yankee! Seriously, "Marry Me" does have the furniture, it's a good country song to me....Poor Aub...we're completely jacking his thread... I'm gonna have to agree with Casey here, nothing country about the lyric in "Marry Me" IMHO, it's a straighforward pop lyric. Same goes for most of the melody.I don't see any "furniture" in that lyric with the possible exception of the socks in my drawer line, but even that is really more of a metaphor than a typical visual/descriptive lyric.Could a pop song be recorded by a country artist and get played on country radio? Of course, it happens, quite a bit actually. But those are usually songs that have been written by mega successful pop writers, or have even been pop hits before.And for a newcomer...you really have to hit the bullseye if you're trying to get an in, and...you're more likely to hit the bullseye if you're aiming right at it, IMHO... ...(unless you're a terrible shot and are just hoping for a random stroke of luck )Now please remember, when I say country, I'm talking about the kind of music we've been hearing on contemporary country radio for the past 10-15 years. Not "historic" country or southern rock or alt country or other "fringe" styles. There really is a common denominator in the music and lyrics of the vast majority of that stuff. And aiming for that common denominator, while aspiring toward coming up with the most unique (yet accessible) lyrical concept possible and aiming for the highest possible level of craftsmanship is what's gonna get you noticed IMHO.

[jchitty]

Hey, Matt....from a standpoint of a person who writes country music, I could argue with you....I think the song sounds country enough to me. However, from the standpoint of TAXI, I cannot argue with you. Here's the bottom line....you being a person who's been with TAXI so long and had a good number of successes, you've have more knowledge on the subject of what gets 'considered' (fowarded, whatever) than I do. While I can come up with what I think are fairly valid points about a song, mine won't be able to grasp the finer points that you can make....maybe when I'm with a TAXI a bit longer, I might be able to be more objective in some of the other areas. So I'll say, (and most people here would know this) that if you think something is amiss with a song, then people should give what you say some credence. Don't know if you got my link, but this is the type of country I write: I'm hoping it has some furniture. Anyway, over and out, guess I better go to bed.http://www.taximusic.com/hosting/home.php?userid=2572

[aubreyz]

Hate to interrupt this very interesting thread with an update , but here's the first mix with instrumentation--- warts and all.Graduation Day -- First MixThanks for all the great input and interest!Regards,Aub

[Casey H]

Quote:Quote:I think you're wrong here, Case. I was actually struck with how 'country' Marry Me does sound...and this from a danged Yankee! Seriously, "Marry Me" does have the furniture, it's a good country song to me....Poor Aub...we're completely jacking his thread... I'm gonna have to agree with Casey here, nothing country about the lyric in "Marry Me" IMHO, it's a straighforward pop lyric. Same goes for most of the melody.I don't see any "furniture" in that lyric with the possible exception of the socks in my drawer line, but even that is really more of a metaphor than a typical visual/descriptive lyric.Could a pop song be recorded by a country artist and get played on country radio? Of course, it happens, quite a bit actually. But those are usually songs that have been written by mega successful pop writers, or have even been pop hits before.And for a newcomer...you really have to hit the bullseye if you're trying to get an in, and...you're more likely to hit the bullseye if you're aiming right at it, IMHO... ...(unless you're a terrible shot and are just hoping for a random stroke of luck )Now please remember, when I say country, I'm talking about the kind of music we've been hearing on contemporary country radio for the past 10-15 years. Not "historic" country or southern rock or alt country or other "fringe" styles. There really is a common denominator in the music and lyrics of the vast majority of that stuff. And aiming for that common denominator, while aspiring toward coming up with the most unique (yet accessible) lyrical concept possible and aiming for the highest possible level of craftsmanship is what's gonna get you noticed IMHO.This is what I get for waking up and 2:30 AM and checking email! I look here at the board and I can't sleep because I feel like I have to respond! Poor Aub again... We owe you one, my friend. I never thought we'd be talking about one of MY songs on this thread! Don't worry Chits, the free publicity is OK with me... Matto... It seems we are in agreement but I'm not sure if on exactly the same thing. When we wrote "Marry Me", we were thinking of country-pop crossover. Faith Hill's "Breathe" was an example of a song that was really a pop song but was a country success. Does modern country include country-pop? I wonder if we all use the same terminology and as I mentioned, I am not very country savvy.First, we agree on the need for great craftsmanship all around...Next, I don't think there is anything specifically non-country about the melody from the above perspective (country-pop/crossover). It's simple, uses the basic chords for the key, etc... I also don't think, from that point of view, the lyrics are not country. The problem is that they just aren't good enough for Nashville standards (for new writers) and THAT is what I was saying (and you definitely agree). Lines like "I see the loving in your eyes" are throw in cliches that stand out like a red flag. I pitched it a number of times when I was with TAXI for modern female country a la Faith Hill etc., and was given the very strong impression from the feedback that if the lyrics were more up to par it would have been forwarded. The music was given scores in the 8-10 range and a lot of praise... especially for the hook.When I said I didn't think the demo sounded country enough, I was dropping back down from country-pop to more traditional or modern than still had a more "country flavor". I was guilty of being all over the board... Again, I am very weak on the genre classifiers here. To pitch the song other than as pop-crossover, another demo might be in order.BTW, regardless of genre, the "socks in your drawer" line is one of the metaphors I am most proud of in my songwriting. I think it does a great job of painting the picture of a couple who is dating, he sleeps over on weekends, but won't commit. You didn't say anything negative about it, but since it came up... 'Cos I don't want to be your lover no moreYour Sunday morning sugar with your socks in my drawer However, to this day I hate "sugar"... I never came up with anything else, so it stayed... IMHO, it comes off like a bad attempt at throwing in something to sound country. I really wanted "Sunday morning lover" but "lover" worked so well in the line before and words like "girlfriend" did not sing well there. (When I am famous they can interview me and ask about it ... Paul Simon had the "lie-la lie" in The Boxer just 'cos he couldn't think of anything!!)BTW, major credit to Raven, the demo singer on Marry Me who kicks butt with the vocal IMHO...I'll end with the 2 rules of songwriting...(1) Follow all the rules.(2) A killer hook sometimes overrides rule #1. (I said sometimes)Hopefully, I can get back to sleep... CaseyPS The song is on my bjam profile...

[jchitty]

Quote:Hate to interrupt this very interesting thread with an update , but here's the first mix with instrumentation--- warts and all.Graduation Day -- First MixThanks for all the great input and interest!Regards,AubWow, I like this first mix. Aub,with every step, you put more country into it. Good use of steel.....looks like you used some software to achieve that.....but it sounds pretty good....and I like the guitar. Like other people here, I'm having a problem with the tennis shoes line, not that I don't think the line is valid, but maybe you could step up the pace of the line...that would make it more catchy as people have pointed out. I LIKE this song, no crap here my end....if I thought it was a pile of dung, I would tell you. Will it pass TAXI muster or appeal to an artist outside of TAXI....I don't know, you never know what the gatekeeper will let pass through.One thing I forgot to point out yesterday in my post to Matt....I listen to a lot of CMT....and all kinds of 'different, more rock oriented country' is being played on CMT these days. Some people in Nashville are even saying that 'country' isn't 'country' anymore. Anyone listen to Keith Urban who's married to Nichole Kidman? He's not really country sounding if you get right down to it...he's very rock oriented....his songs could be played on VH1 as well, and they have been. But he's a major country star and sells tons of records. Also, Bon Jovi has a hit song on CMT right now as well, and it doesn't sound country, more like country rock. Other stars joining the CMT lineup have included Bruce Springsteen, John Mellencamp....etc. So Country Music Television is embracing all styles now...that may PO Nashville off sometimes, but it's bringing in bucks for them...if a song is good, it's just good. Now will less country sounding songs be accepted in more conservative/traditional markets like radio stations? Remember, CMT tends to embrace more styles of country music while the radio stations in a place like Alabama lean more toward stuff like Kenny Chesney or Brad Paisley. But really,I think your lyrics would carry off the song...it could be 'country' in any market. Keep plugging, Aub. When someone writes a good country song, I get jazzed. I am going to try to stick to your song in this thread....I made this point about CMT only to let people know that there are possibilities out there...you don't have to sound super country to get played...in fact, my neo-traditional style may actually work against me in some markets...meaning teenagers. Teenagers are buying lots of country music these days....and they want more of a rock edge to their country....I notice you have some of that flavor now in your first mix.Anyway, over and out....this thread is like peanuts, you can't stop eating them.

[Casey H]

OK, back to your regularly sponsored thread.... Wow Aub, this mix and vocal are damn good! Is it a country pitch? I don't think so, but it's not my area. The track has come a long way! Is that you singing, BTW? All the best, Casey

[aubreyz]

Quote:OK, back to your regularly sponsored thread.... Wow Aub, this mix and vocal are damn good! Is it a country pitch? I don't think so, but it's not my area. The track has come a long way! Is that you singing, BTW? All the best, CaseyThanks Casey -- and Chits too.Yeah... that's my vocal--- in my native Texan drawl...lol I almost had to call 911 because my oldest son hyperventilated from laughing when he heard it Considering the song was conceived and written in a few hours on Saturday, vocals recut Sunday in a couple of hours, and everything but piano added and mixed in a few hours last night... well, I'm pretty happy with it at this stage. It needs some major tweaks if it were to ever need to make it as a placement on it's own-- (a real steel, some acoustic [we ran out of time], and a real fiddle , drum fixes, real bass, bg vocals, a real mix [rather than just a quick faders up leveling job]) -- but other than that... lol, I'm pretty happy. Aub