my first beef with Taxi

[didger]

I don't normally complain, had plenty of practice with rejection in high school, and have agreed with every return I got from Taxi until now. I just can't understand the reasoning on this one.BIG ORCHESTRAL TRACKS are needed immediately by the Licensing Partner of a Music Production Company that specializes in original music for Film and TV as well as Documentaries. Their clients include FOX TV, ABC Family, E Entertainment, ESPN and many more. They would like to hear instrumentals that have high energy, a good build, and also contains tension/a dark undercurrent of emotion. They gave the film Gladiator as a perfect example of the type of underscore they are looking for – but please don’t send a soundalike, they are looking for original tracks only. Here's my piece that I did for the listing after first listening to Gladiator:http://www.taximusic.com/stream/253811/ ... ert.mp3The critique was, "More World music than big orchestral. Cool sound, though!"If you only listen to the 30 second clips of the Gladiator soundtrack on iTunes, you will hear santoor (the one melodic/harmonic "world" instrument I used), taiko (I used), some hand drums, dumbek or darbuka or something (I used djembes and admittedly got a bit louder at the end to satisfy the energy and build requirement), plus flamenco guitar, duduk and male and female "world" vocals. Gladiator is clearly a big orchestral AND world music score, so I made something using full orchestral strings, percussion, trumpets, trombones and horns, using some similar tonalities and moody legato strings that I heard in Gladiator, and some of the same "world" instruments, but I didn't intentionally imitate any specific melodies, harmonies or rhythms. It's got dark undercurrent, it's all about building to high energy. So I was sure I was nailing this one.But it was returned for being too "world," when all the world instrumentation and inspiration came from the one example they gave as "perfect?" I would have accepted other reasoning, but the reason I was given makes me think the reviewer didn't listen to Gladiator before doing the critiques and just focused on "big orchestral."Any thoughts?

[wings]

This is totally Gladiator. I think the listing was VERY misleading, based on those who got through and those who didn't. ~wings~

[bigbluebarry]

Hey Randin,If I had been the screener, I think would have returned it as well for the same reason, it sounds more like a World music track than a Big Orchestral track. The track definitely has tension, a dark undercurrent and a nice build, but it didn't feel like it had high energy to me. As the track was building near the end, I kept waiting for this explosion of energy from all the tension that had been building, but it never really did. While I have seen the Gladiator movie, it's been many years, and I haven't listened to the score in a long time, but from what I recall, your piece sounds like it could fit within that movie. But the tricky part of all this is knowing which section of the movie that listing party had in mind when they put that in their listing. Was it the intro, the outro, a fight scene, a love scene? Let me try a slightly different context for a second. There have been a few listings in the past that were looking for rock songs in the vein of AC/DC, Aerosmith and Bon Jovi. Putting aside the fact that all three of those bands have their own sound, let's just think about Aerosmith for a second. Is the listing party wanting songs that sound like Aerosmith from the 70's, or the 80's, or the 90's or today? What about Bon Jovi? They sound much different today than they did back in the 80's. AC/DC? Well, I think they pretty much sound the same no matter what era you refer to I think the key is finding out what do those bands have in common that would make this listing party put them in the same listing. I don't think they're looking for songs that sound like all three of those bands at the same time. But I do think they were looking for songs with BIG choruses that have very memorable hooks that you could hear on the radio, and probably some sort of memorable guitar riff.Now suppose I happened to submit a track that sounded like an Aerosmith song that was much more blues driven and not as radio friendly. While I can't guarantee it, I would bet it would be returned for probably being off target. A year ago if that had happened I would have been upset and complained wanting to know why my Aerosmith song that sounds just like one of their lesser known blues tracks got returned. I'd be like "But you asked for Aerosmith type songs and that's what I wrote!" Now tying that back to your situation. Sometimes I think we (myself included) tend to zero in on one aspect of a listing so much that we lose sight of the big picture. I know I've done it many a times. There is an art and a science to interpreting the listings. I think over time it gets easier to decipher what they're after, but not always. Sometimes it feels like they're asking to "make it more orange." What's that mean??? You know what I'm saying?So while yes, I do think your track met several of the requirements in the listing, the first requirement mentioned is BIG ORCHESTRAL TRACKS, and in my humble opinion, I just don't think you hit that part of the listing.Just my $0.02.- Big Blue

[wings]

FWIW, Gladiator has a total middle East feel to it - think EW Voices of Passion and big hits (drums). I respectfully disagree with ya. Personally, I think the listing is misleading. Based on what actually did go through (and this is by no means a knock to those who submitted successfully), Gladiator is by no means even close to some of the forwards.~wings~

[Casey H]

This is not my area of expertise at all. I took a few minutes to listen to Gladiator clips on amazon.com and went back and forth against this piece, which is VERY nice BTW-- cool build, etc.My guess is that although Gladiator uses world elements, it's possible that your piece just had a little too much Asian sound from the get-go. Those first seconds are particularly critical. A different lead instrument over the same background strings might have made it really work for this listing.I have to reiterate something Barry said as a general thing. I've fallen into the trap he referred to at times. A listing asks for a song a la Band X. I listen to many Band X clips until I find one that my song may match somewhat. Wrong! The key is to match that band's sound as far as their most popular songs and their 'general' sound that they are known for.Listening to Gladiator clips in the "whole", I think I see why this was returned.But don't be too discouraged. Every time you write a piece for a listing, you have one more in your arsenal for future opportunities. A good piece will shine somewhere.Best Casey

[wings]

If that's the case, Casey (Hey! that wasn't planned ), they need to be more specific in the listing. Gladiator is a fairly wide palette. ~wings~

[wings]

...Not to mention - the goofy thing about this listing is that it's NOT for one particular project - or so the listing states. So why not forward? ~wings~

[Casey H]

Jul 30, 2009, 5:05am, wings wrote:If that's the case, Casey (Hey! that wasn't planned ), they need to be more specific in the listing. Gladiator is a fairly wide palette. ~wings~I could be wrong. Randin could always contact taxi and ask for clarification.I think Barry did a good job explaining how to deal with the "wide palette". Many listings seem to cast a wide net. You have to go with the common and most well known elements. This subject comes up a lot. I do some work on the outside and I can tell you that listing descriptions can be difficult everywhere. Taxi has to deal with how the listing parties describe what they are looking for and they are not always the best at that. If taxi pushes too hard for more information, it can get touchy whereby the listing party doesn't want the hassle. Don't forget, there is no shortage of music out there. Sometimes taxi has to work hard to get those listings. There is a delicate balance they have to walk-- get listings for members and provide a reasonable amount of info.My few additional cents,Casey

[didger]

Hey Barry and Casey,I appreciate everything you've said, but I don't think it applies the same here. Referencing a few bands with long careers is very different from referencing one film soundtrack. Returning this based on being world music is like,"we only gave you an hour of music to choose from, but you picked the wrong half hour of it!" They returned the piece for having defining characteristics of that one reference they gave. I actually kind of agree with Barry on the build, and if anything, I was expecting to be rejected with "piece should have been loud and fast from the beginning."The Gladiator soundtrack is by Hans Zimmer and Lisa Gerrard. Lisa Gerrard is a world music artist who made her career with world music group Dead Can Dance. Her primary instruments are voice and a Chinese hammer dulcimer which is the lead instrument on several pieces on the soundtrack. So I used a nearly identical sounding middle eastern dulcimer.If the listing didn't want that, it should have said "Gladiator without the world music influence," or "Hans Zimmer's work on Gladiator." But really, it seems it should have just said "a big orchestral Hans Zimmer action score."If "big orchestra" means "big european sounding typical action orchestra" I think it should say so. I had a big orchestra building to big fff tuttis in a way that big orchestras do. It's realistic big orchestral writing. It would fit on the Gladiator soundtrack.This is not an insult in any way, but for example, listen to Jeff Greenleaf's piece that was forwarded. It's really an electronica piece with orchestral samples, and some electronica drum elements. Where is that in the Gladiator score? Is that more "big orchestral" than mine? Does it sound more like Gladiator than mine? Does it build more than mine, to a higher intensity than mine? How does it address the listing better than mine? I'd really like to know.Again, I can't say enough that this is not a criticism of his work, but only of the listing and how it was interpreted by the screener.

[wings]

Or "Big Eurpoean orchestra with a mechanical drum beat"....Fairly annoyed as well. ~wings~