Taxi say this platinum artist has tuning issues?

[mazz]

I think your ability to deal with this particular return is being clouded by your insistence that because this version had some success in some places, it should have success everywhere.In my experience with film/TV, either a piece works for the particular usage, or it doesn't. It typically isn't judged on it's musical merits in a vacuum, but rather what it's going to be used for when placed against a piece of video or the story line of the show. In this day and age, there is very little "wiggle room" for a singer to be expressive with their pitch. With the advent of autotune and it's ilk, a note is heard exactly on pitch from the beginning to the end, with the exception of vibrato (usually). Gliding in and out of the pitch, even slightly, used to be an expressive tool in pop music but it appears that it has fallen out of favor due to the ability of the pitch correction "tools" to grab the note and "correct" it immediately. Now that these tools have been in use for a while, the music industry and even the public at large is used to this sound (for pop music) and anything that doesn't fit with that, like the sliding to the pitch of the note that your singer does, is marked "pitchy".Your singer eventually gets to the notes but I do detect ever so slight sliding on the way to the center of the pitch on several notes in the course of the song. If you took an average, I bet he is on pitch eventually most of the time, but I have a feeling this pitchiness is being detected not on the notes themselves but on the way to the notes, if that makes sense.Other production issues aside (it sounds like a decent home production, good but not great), I think if you are going to compete with this song in the broader licensing market, it needs to be updated with some more obvious pitch correction to, unfortunately, make it sound like a modern production. If this listing was for a foreground placement, they may have been more picky than they would be for a background (i.e. jukebox or radio playing in a bar) placement.I think you are too close to this song and production. You need to step back and take a breath and imagine if you didn't have anything to do with it, what would it sound like to you? That's a thing we all need to practice, IMO. It will help you in your career.Just my 3cMazz

[aubreyz]

Jun 2, 2009, 9:03am, euromantix wrote: Jun 2, 2009, 8:18am, aubreyz wrote:The intro sounds very midi and boxy. By midi, I mean it sounds quantized, stiff and sampled. The lo-fi drum loop kind of adds to that unreal sound. It's clear by the time the track builds that this was a production decision and not necessarily a matter of quality, but I think the screener's description is spot on -- that's what it sounds like.You're right, this was a production decision. The intro is intended to sound retro. It sounds quantised because it is quantised. It's that nice trick that when there is more contrast between the quality of two sections, then the better section 'appears' even better than it actually may be. The point I was trying to make above was of course not with reference to the intro! To clarify, I just cannot comprehend (neither apparently can any other poster) how by the time the reviewer gets to the momentum and build that this track has, particularly the 3rd chorus if not before, he/she could possibly make the comments they did about it This does lead one to the conclusion that they perhaps didn't bother listening to the full song It's worth noting that Taxi has strict policies concerning screeners listening to tracks. Just like cutting and pasting, if a screener takes shortcuts, they will be fired. I've been to Taxi, looked through the training materials, have seen the checks and balances. Anything is possible, but it's very improbable that the screener didn't listen all the way.Yeah, listening to the whole track it's more obvious that this was fully produced. The vocal layering as it builds is nice. However, the first impression is not that way, or at least to me. The first vocal sounds very dry and almost apart from the track... not talking about the vocal performance - just the production. It get's better, but first impressions are hard to get over. Others might have differing opinions, but I would characterize the track by that more than the build later. Generally you have 10 to 15 secs to grab interest, though this is a good track overall, I probably wouldn't have gotten to the build if I was just listening to listen.btw- I'm not saying that all my opinions are correct, but I do have a bit of experience in this game. Just saying that there is usually some basis to differing opinions. Not everyone, or every screener is going to have the same opinions.Quote:It's so strange how I (and others) just cannot hear this. I pride myself on having a normally excellent ear. I have lived with this song during production and beyond, and just cannot hear anything "pitchy". That word - to me - means his pitch i.e. tuning is off, IOW he is singing some notes out of tune. Can you clarify which words or syllables are sung out of tune - to your ear - please? By way of coincidence, I was listening to some old stuff of mine yesterday. Some of the things that I thought were great at the time, I cringe at now. It's easy to miss the forest for the trees when you live with something during the whole production phase.Here's what I hear -- from the top, just a couple of examples. First line, the words "along" and "lane" His vibrato is pretty deep, which is not a bad thing, but he also scoops some too. It's not horrible by any stretch, but that deep of vibrato combined with scooping gives an out of pitch impression. It would be easy to fix and most of what you hear on the radio is fixed, one way or another. Mind you, I'm being VERY picky, but that's where the bar is. Sometimes you can squeak by with something that is this close, but there's pretty stiff competition out there, even for TV placements.The biggest thing for me is that line I mentioned at the end of the first verse... "hear these words I say...e" Listen to the word Say to the end. He's not dead on pitch wise, not enough breath support, and then the little run at the end goes way off... the last note is cut off like he ran out of air and is VERY off pitch IMHO. One reason all of this is so stark and obvious is because of the vocal mix.Listen to Even If on his myspace page. The vocal, from the first note sounds better. There's some subtle reverb, I'm going to guess a little doubling, and some nice subtle vocal delays to even things out. I would bet money that if Stay For Life were remixed, it would sound just as good.On another topic, do you have master rights and performance waivers for this track? Just curious.Aub

[ceedub]

I like this tune. But I agree with the TAXI review completely. I thought about pitch on the melismatic stuff and on the bridge. I don't think it sounds current. And I think the "small and synthetic" comment is especially true of the critical first 10 seconds.

[euromantix]

Thanks for the additional feedback. I still find it astonishing that Taxi (and someone here) think this production needs work, or sounds like a 'home recording'. It was mixed by the legendary Dave Bascombe (Elton John, Placebo, Goldfrapp, Verve, Kylie Minogue, Moby, Bon Jovi, Wheatus, David Bowie, Stereophonics, Peter Gabriel, etc.). I'm not saying that listing a load of names, statistics, and other track record stuff necessarily means that this production quality is automatically great, but it kinda points the finger towards the fact that the majority of people who have replied to this thread are correct that it is. Maybe I should refer Taxi to Dave Bascombe and they can discuss their complaints about the quality of the recording and lack of AutoTune with him (And yes, I have the right to pitch this - you can leave that side of things to me )

[hummingbird]

I listened to this song this morning, and wanted to see the listing so I could see the context.In film/tv, it's very important that the mood of the piece be set at the beginning. I really like this song, and I like how it builds, and it definitely makes me respond emotionally. That being said, when it first started playing I was surprised at the lack of quality sounds off the top. When the vocals come in the bedtrack sounds tinny. Perhaps the bedtrack is overcompressed. The vocals are placed well in the mix, and I like the voice very much. The song starts to take off in second chorus, where it is fuller, there are harmony vocals & strings, and it moves me... but there is still some sizzle in the mix. Of course, we are listening to an mp3. As a singer myself I find it frustrating to deal with the autotune age, which means that emotion and authenticity is replaced by mechanical manipulation.I went and listened to Howie Day's "Be There" for comparison. I don't think you can listen to the mixes of both songs and not hear that 'Stay for Life' isn't at that level.I agree with Mazz's post. It is very hard to remove ourselves emotionally from our work and realize that our product might work very well in one market but not work for another.

[billg]

euromantix, this may make you feel better . . . or worse, I don't know.I had a return from about a month ago. Wasn't broadcast quality because the vocals lacked "emotional depth and tone". I was pretty bummed, not so much about the return but I wanted to fix the track . . . my confidence was hit and I tried for a few days to figure our what I could do to fix it. I finally decided not to trust the screener's judgement and to go with my gut . . . which was that it was good. I ponied up $10 and submitted it to two more listings . . . same vocal track. It was forwarded for both listing by two different screeners. One commented "awesome version", mentioned nothing about vocals one way or the other. Sometimes people are right & sometimes they're wrong and it doesn't matter how much they're supposed to know. I agree with RLD that it's damn confusing when broadcast quality and vocal pitch are deemed to be subjective issues but that's the way it is. You can get as many opinions as you like but eventually you have to go with your gut. And most important don't allow someone else to make you doubt yourself, they might know what they're talking about & then again they might not . . . know what I mean?If you feel like singing a songAnd you want other people to sing alongThen just sing what you feelDon't let anyone say it's wrongAnd if you're trying to paint a pictureBut you're not sure which colors belongJust paint what you seeDon't let anyone say it's wrongYou think you might need somebodyTo pick you up when you dragDon't lose sight of yourselfDon't let anyone change you backAnd if the whole world's singing your songsAnd all you're paintings have been hungJust remember what was yours is everyone's from now onAnd that's not wrong or rightBut you can struggle with it all you likeYou'll only get uptightfrom wilco's "white light"

[euromantix]

Thanks guys, it certainly does seem to be a very subjective thing doesn't it! I'm not overly worried about not getting this forward - I am used to knock-backs as are we all, besides I already got the song released on a commercial album - that's the ultimate forward for me

[aubreyz]

Dave Bascombe is a great engineer. Been a fan since Tears for Fears days. Cool credit. Doesn't change my opinion of the vocal performance. And the engineer is usually at the mercy of both the producer and budget. Not saying this is the case, but I've done some cheap gigs where I couldn't fix everything I wanted to.IMHO your logic is kind of like this. BMW makes great cars. How could anyone think the 120d looks boxy. Well, I do The reason I asked about licensing, it seems kind of odd that you have a cut with so many supposed heaver hitters hands on it... you think it might be in a library because it was on Bones according to google... so evidently you don't have exclusive rights to the master...but as you suggested I will leave that side of things to you.Back to the production, IMHO this is not a stellar song, performance or production. It's good, never denied that, but it's not exactly Tears For Fears either. It seems that your main gripe is that the screener was wrong and so you should get your 5 bucks back. Seems rather trivial with all the names you are throwing around, but let's say hypothetically that the screener got the vocal part wrong. Bottom line is that this was submitted to the wrong listing. It's not stylistically in the same camp as the a la's in the listing, nor is it "singer-songwriter". Wrong genre. That's not Taxi's fault, that's your bad."Hey... I ordered this hamburger and it has no ham on it! Can I get my money back?" "Uh... no, it says right here on the menu two beef patties, sorry you misread it".Don't really know what your purpose in all this is, but I feel like it's a waste of my time. You asked for opinions, but the only opinions "in the universe" that you want to hear are ones that you agree with.And btw-- Are you telling me that you can't hear the wrong note (it's almost a vocal squeak) at the end of the first verse - "hear these words I say...e"? Really? That I find hardest to believe of any of this discussion.Over and out,Aub

[billg]

Wow, I just listened 4 times to the "hear the words I say" part and i don't hear the problem there. I hear the singer go to the falsetto and then four trailing falsetto accent notes . . . Aub is this what you hear as a squeak?The production nor the song either one is my cup of tea but I don't hear the pitch issues.

[aubreyz]

btw- Bill has a great point. I'm a huge fan of his stuff and have used words like genius to describe a few of his songs. He has a very free and unique vocal style. Though IMHO, it's great, I can see how someone might not dig it, though I think that would be rare. Screeners are people too, and it's certainly possible that a qualified screener would pass on something that another screener might forward.Until robots become screeners, you'll have those differing opinions. I am just trying to give you some input on why this screener may have passed on this track. Another may love it, forward it and it gets placed.Also, it was not my intention to be testy or argumentative in all this. Just an interesting topic to discuss.Aub