Need more feedback: Boo Hoo, 0 for 1

[plaincountry]

Let me be up front. I was not truly expecting a forward. I knew the song was not ready in terms of production, engineering, musicianship, lead vocal (I'm not that great a singer, and I don't know if I should invest in studio work). Simply put, I wasn't invested in the song in terms of the quality of production, and I knew that the arrangement left some things to be desired. I did think (perhaps like most rookie songwriters) that the song itself was good--even great. I just wanted some quality feedback from a professional, so that I would have some guidance on where I should focus to improve my craft and my many songs.I have to say, however, that I was very surprised by the feedback that I got. It seemed to me that my screener totally missed a song that really wasn't that complicated, so I guess I just need a reality check, and I'll bear my soul the first time out with all of the feedback I received.What I really want to know is if the story is really unclear and if the song lacks a clear, beginning, middle, and end. Of course, any other tips and constructive criticism would be great as well. Thanks. SteveHere is the link and lyrics to the song and my TAXI feedback. http://www.taximusic.com/download/17491 ... u_.mp3Song Lyrics:Where Were You?© Steven B. HickmanWhere were you when the moon began to shine only on her?Where were you when I thought she was the only girl on this earth?Where were you when I crossed the shore into that wondrous sea called love?Where were you? Oh girl, where were you?‘Cause here I am just a broken man, but lady you have given me hope But please understand, I bet all my heart on love so baby right now I'm broke But I know in time, and with all I see in you one day I'll begin to trust But where were you when I fell in love?(Chorus)If I had known you then you could have saved this heart of mineYou could have rescued me from all the hurt I'd feel in time. If I had known you from the startYou could have saved this broken heart ‘Cause I know forever you'd be true.Oh where were you? ‘Cause without trust, no matter you try, girl it’s gonna be hard,‘Cause you can't love when you feel so insecure, you always gotta put up your guardBut you seem to me to be everything I need and girl I can’t believe my luckBut where you, when I fell in love.(Repeat Chorus)Name Steven H. Listing # S081007CO Title: Where Were You? N/A 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 (10=best) 4 Music 4 Lyrics 4 Marketability 5 Arrangement 5 Production 5 Engineering 6 Musicianship 6 Lead Vocal A lot of heart & soul here. See comments. Status: Forward Return Style x On target for this listing Hard to classify Not close enough to what listing asked for Not "current" sounding Style not consistent enough from song to song for an artist pitchContemporary Country songs a la Gary Allan. Songs with a Country/Pop/Rock edge, combined with unique lyrics needed. The artist sings with depth & emotion, "Smoke Rings In The Dark" a good reference. Positive and upbeat stories could rise to the top here. Overall CommentsHi Steve, good to hear your song. It has a natural and honest feeling all the way through. "Wondrous sea" is a nice line-- evocative. Seems the song starts off with some confusion. First line addresses "her". Other lines address "girl" and it is slightly jarring. Important to keep the verses in the same person. Country songs tend to be crystal clear and to the point. You might begin- "girl where were you." You could drop "her." Also establishing a clear story arc can help a song. A beginning, middle, and end. You could think of your song as a mini movie. You might check the Gary Allan song "Smoke Rings." Check the lyrics, melodies, and structure. Country radio can also be a helpful teacher. Will watch for more songs from you. Bio CommentsDig the "grown folks music" idea. Keep those songs flowing. The main reason(s) you were or were not forwarded for this listing is:Song could benefit from more development. See comments. Listener ID#272

[claire]

I have to say, however, that I was very surprised by the feedback that I got. It seemed to me that my screener totally missed a song that really wasn't that complicated, so I guess I just need a reality check, and I'll bear my soul the first time out with all of the feedback I received.There's a term, "writer's assumption" that means the writer knows what he means and assumes that it's as clear to someone who didn't write the song and is hearing it just as a listener. In reading your lyric, I didn't know what the first verse meant because the word "you" could mean so many things. Granted, the Taxi reviewer has a lyric sheet. An ordinary listener doesn't. Looking at the lyric, I thought maybe this was going to be a variety of Alan Jackson's "Where Were You" song from 2001, so there is some confusion going on.Just a pointer - don't print the copyright date when you print your copyright notice. We now know that your song is 10 years old and even though there have been some monster hits that took ten years to get cut, most publishers want something new, something they know hasn't been pitched and passed on for years. You don't need the date, just the copyright notice.The Taxi reviewer was correct when he said that country lyrics are clear and to the point. Gary Allen does do some songs that aren't middle-of-the-road country, but the songs he does are very clear in their story lines. The "Smoke Rings" song is a good one to look up.Claire

[plaincountry]

Thanks Claire for the tip about the copyright. I will definitely keep that in mind for some of my older songs. Even though I wrote this song 10 years ago, this is the first time I've ever put it out there for review. So far it has only been passed on only once, right here .True, there are many "Where were you" songs. Alan Jackson and Reba McEntyre are two that I can think of. If that were the source of the confusion mentioned, I guess I wouldn't have a leg to stand on, but it wasn't. Ok, maybe I just can't admit that my "baby" is ugly, but that's the thing about a mother's love, not even the truth can kill it. I did go back and review Gary Allan's song and I must say there were some similarities to mine. I mean, just how confusing is "you" anyway?Well I won't make you tell meWhat I've come to understandYou're a certain kind of womanI'm a different kind of manYeah, I know: "I met Gary Allan, I've seen Gary Allan live, Steve, you're no Gary Allan" I'm not bashing anyone or being stubborn. I thought this was what this forum was all about. Let me know if that is not the case and I will gladly move on.

[claire]

Ok, maybe I just can't admit that my "baby" is ugly, but that's the thing about a mother's love, not even the truth can kill it. I did go back and review Gary Allan's song and I must say there were some similarities to mine. I mean, just how confusing is "you" anyway?Well I won't make you tell meWhat I've come to understandYou're a certain kind of womanI'm a different kind of manHey - your baby isn't ugly at all. I've "seen" some ugly babies and trust me, your baby is beautiful. It's just confusing at the moment, probably because of the way it starts. I think the Taxi guy was right - if you started it with "girl, where were you..." we'd focus more instinctively on where the lyric is going.As for the quote from the Gary Allen song, the singer is talking directly to a woman and it's one on one. It's very clear, nothing ambiguous about it. I don't think those are the first lines of the song, haven't heard it in a while, but I could be wrong (I'm usually wrong, which is why I seldom post comments about songs here). I think the scene has been set and we know the situation and the fact that there are only two people involved in the song, "you" can only mean the woman.Sadly, we can't compare our songs to the ones Alan Jackson writes and the ones Reba sings (or used to sing, when they let her on radio). He's the artist/writer, she's the super star. We're neither. It probably sounds trite by now but we have to write better than good. There are already plenty of good songs out there. We have to write amazing.Sorry if my post touched a nerve. I was just posting my thoughts in answer to your question as to whether the story was unclear. Just my opinion Claire

[matthoggard]

Hey Steven,I agree with Claire. Listen to her, she is a VERY talented writer and knows what she is talking about. I like the melody for the musical progressions. You have apretty good verse/chorus contrast.I personally think you could shorten up some of the lines. Drop words like "just", "gotta",etc. There are alot of syllables in these lyrics and some of them seem like a mouthful to sing.The first line of the chorus says nearly the same thing as the 3rd and 4th lines. Its good imagery but I think it can be said differently.I think with a lyric tweak and a pro demo with a current sound you would be onto something here.M~

[davewalton]

Nov 2, 2008, 4:19am, claire wrote:Sadly, we can't compare our songs to the ones Alan Jackson writes and the ones Reba sings (or used to sing, when they let her on radio). He's the artist/writer, she's the super star. We're neither. It probably sounds trite by now but we have to write better than good. Claire's right of course. I'll throw in my own example. This is a non-country example but there's some relevance to how hard it is to "break through". I'm scoring a small, independent film which also features music by Sheryl Crow. I mentioned in another thread about some guy bugging the daylights out of everyone involved to try to place his song in the film. Well, guess what? The vocal "song" music is already selected so who's music does he have to replace? Not mine because I'm just doing the orchestral score, not any "vocal" songs. It's Sheryl Crow he has to knock off the "stage"! Aside from the fact that she has some pretty good music, her name alone lends credibility to the film so the film makers aren't going to replace any of her music unless the music be presented for consideration is just OVER-THE-TOP AWESOME. Of course, the music in question isn't but even if it was, it made me realize how good it would have to be in order to "beat out" the music of Sheryl Crow for this project.I have to believe it's the same everywhere... Country, Pop, Rock, whatever. In a sense, we have to be so good as to "replace" music coming from Multi-Grammy-Award-Winning songwriters and the like. In the Pop realm... all things being equal, if my song is only AS GOOD or even BETTER THAN a song written by Dianne Warren, I'd guess she'd get the nod 99 times out of 100 because she's a "known quantity" and I'm not. That's not an "it's impossible so why try" example, just a "fame/fortune with little to no effort isn't normal" example. It's a tough business but it's all do-able. Anyway, detach yourself emotionally from your music as much as you can (when it comes to critiques and such), try to learn from the collective opinions when they all point in the same direction. That makes the journey a lot more interesting, a lot more relaxing and a lot more fun. FWIW,Dave

[anne]

Hi Steven - I'm not a country writer, so let me tell you that straight off. I only read the lyrics, as your post seemed more about the story and lyrics than the melody etc. I think the story is not ugly at all! I do think it needs some clarification, though. There are 3 characters involved here, and it gets a little confusing in that it takes until the chorus to get the characters straight. Mainly because it seems like your talking to yourself -OR- your are talking to someone new. If that were cleared up, your message would leap out some more and I think you'd have a strong song!BTW I had my first return this year, after all forwards previously - OUCH! - but it did show me how easily one can get stuck in a groove and lead me to go back to the "learning board" to keep writing better. I'm sure that you will do that as well and get this song or another forwarded HTH

[claire]

There are some things that are very hard for me to do. One of them is to rewrite a line of lyric that I absolutely LOVE. There are all these little catch phrases you hear, one of which is "you gotta kill your baby" meaning you have to take a deep breath, suck it up, and rewrite the line you absolutely love, if nobody else loves it. That's a tough one! That's not to say that you are required to rewrite a line that resonates with you, but if a bunch of people say "that doesn't serve the story well, that isn't clear, that's too poetic/literal/conversational/whatever, then thinking about rewriting is in order.The other thing that's very hard for me to do is to rewrite a line that's too "tell" and make it more "show". It's so much easier to write a line like "I love you because you're you" rather than get into "I love you because your smile lights up my room" - and please, those are not lyrics! Just saying what it is that's hard for me to do and it takes several rewrites and unhinging my brain to get there.I have a song called "Beautiful Life" and several people have said that the first few lines of the lyric don't really move towards the hook, but my cowriter and I both love the lines and have kept them. Whether that makes a difference in the song ever getting cut remains to be seen. The lines are:Shreveport on a summer eveningScreen door is barely breathingOutside the pavement's steamingAfter a pouring rainThere comes a fine line between rewriting because someone tells you a line needs rewriting, and rewriting because you truly believe in your heart that the line could be better. Listener confusion is always (to me) the deciding factor.Keep working on the song, Steven. It's got a lot going for it.Claire

[cameron]

Steve,Getting a return is nothing to be ashamed of. If you'd had a forward on your first country submission you would be an exceptional talent. I think I read last week that one of the songwriters on our forum had close to 100 returns before his first forward.If you've posted here I'm assuming you want honest feedback and not just a slap on the back telling you that you're great. Believe me, I'm pulling for every person here to have a breakthrough hit, but I don't want to BS people either. As already said, the bar is exceedingly high in country music these days. I know you have high hopes for your song, but my honest opinion is that I just don't think it's strong enough in its present form. I would like to offer you more specific suggestions-- which I find a lot easier to do with lyrics than with melody-- but I'm no great lyricist so I'll defer to Claire for that. All I can say about the melody and chord progression is that they are pretty predictable, with nothing that really makes it stand out. The verses remind me quite a bit of "Let Me Be There", the Olivia Newton John song that was remade by the Oak Ridge Boys (which, by the way, probably couldn't get cut today imho). Predictable chords and melodies are nothing new in traditional country, but there has to be something else lyrically or musically that sets the song apart from the others. I just don't hear that here.It's certainly not a bad song, but the others are absolutely right that a song has to be great to break-in as a songwriter these days. I haven't written any myself that meet that standard, so don't feel bad. Listen to some of Perry Smith's songs (http://www.perrysmith.com). I think he's one of the most talented amateur songwriters I know of. Yet, as good as his songs are, I don't think he's had a cut yet. That could change any day mind you.Your vocals are fine, but I heeded some advice from Jason Blume's book when he said "hire the best singer you can find". I can sing a litte bit, and Jason Blume sings much better than I do, but we both hire professional singers to sing our demos. A&R people have lousy imaginations.Also, a simple demo with just a piano or guitar can work for a slow ballad, but for just about anything else I'd recommend hiring a demo studio to present your song in the best light possible. Listen to the studio demos of Perry Smith, Janet Chitty, Warren Heins or me and you'll see what you're competing against with a home recording.I want to know when my songs need work, and I hope you will feel free to tell me so whenever you think something I post isn't ready yet. Of course, I'm just one opinion, so please consider that too. When I get an opinion I don't agree with, I respectfully disagree and move on. If I hear the same thing from three of four people, I start to wonder if maybe I shouldn't listen up.I also hope you don't feel we're ganging up on you. I think just about everybody on this forum is pulling for you and genuine in their desire to help you succeed.Cam

[plaincountry]

Nov 2, 2008, 9:26am, cameron wrote:I also hope you don't feel we're ganging up on you. I think just about everybody on this forum is pulling for you and genuine in their desire to help you succeed.In no way do I feel ganged up on. This was the type of feedback that I wanted and needed. I've been writing in a vacuum for a long time. Now I'm trying to get out of my hole and share what I think is good and, hopefully, make it better. I just found the screener feedback very hard to accept because he or she said that the lyrics and melody of the song were worse than the vocal, engineering, etc. I didn't work that hard on the technical things. I got the lyrics and melody, however, exactly where I wanted them (from the perspective of my own little vacuum, of course). I still don't think I will change the song much in terms of the lyric (except the redundant lines in the chorus) but I'm already working on an intro that I hope will add a little variety to the song in terms of structure and clarify the situation. You all have been a great help. I have a starting point, now from which I can work. I appreciate all of your expertise and advice. I'm definitely taking it to heart. I feel like the next song I submit be a giant leap from this one.