Question for the orchestral composers

[bigbluebarry]

Matto... Thanks for chiming in. I'm a "decent" notation reader. I believe I should be able to follow along with a score as it's being played. I'll have to check out both of those items you mentioned.Man, I'm so glad I started this thread. I feel like I have a very good idea of how to get started on this journey now. Definitely think it'll help me from spinning my wheels. Thanks again to every one who's shared and please feel free to continue to do so. This has been wonderful advice for me.Thanks!- Big Blue

[ernstinen]

Jan 8, 2009, 9:24am, bigbluebarry wrote:Jan 7, 2009, 9:43am, ernstinen wrote: It's quite complicated, but importing quantized Midi files into your scoring program helps a lot.Ern, thanks for sharing those songs. I listened to them both. WOW! I really don't know what else to say. I'm just blown away by the amount of talent here in this community, and even moreso by the generosity of those with that talent to help others out. So when you say "scoring program", you're talking about Finale or Sebilius, or something similar, right? - Big BlueThanks for listening, Big Blue. I appreciate your comments!I've used MOTU's Mosaic for a long time, but they stopped supporting it for Mac OS X. I've done all my scores with Mosaic in OS 9, but when I put in a new hard drive and switched to OS X, I'm kinda back to square one. I'm gonna be test-driving Sibelius and Finale soon, and most composers feel that Sibelius is easier to work with, so I'll probably go that route. Plus, both my maternal grandparents were born in Finland, so I gotta support those Finns, eh? Best Regards,Ern

[charlie2]

"The study of orchestration" and the CD set that goes with it by Adler and "acoustic and midi orchestration for the contemporary composer" by richard De rosa and andrea pejrolo are two important books on the subject that you may want to check out.

The Adler book/CD set was a college text used when I studied orchestration and composition. The CDS will let you hear exactly what it sounds like in the real world.

I'm still learning things from them. It's a lifelong process

[fusilierb]

Hey Big B. I did go the study in college route and it was extremely helpful to me. Mainly in the sense that I got to write music and have it played by real orchestral performers who would then tell me what worked, what was easy to play, what wasn't and then being able to hear things stack up in the real world (not the midi mock up world). My orchestration class was incredible and it shortcutted years off of my learning curve.

But beyond that, the two most important things that helped me to figure the orchestra out was:
A) Getting scores for my favorite orchestra pieces and reading along while they play (Hands down the most important thing a new orchestrator can do for themselves. You can search the net for public domain scores and grab yourself some. Print them out and read along while they're playing. Then once, you've really got the piece in your head, read along WITHOUT them playing. Spend a lot of time staring at an orchestral score and you'll learn soo much.

B) Going to see a live orchestra play, or more importantly, practice. When I was in college, I went to watch the orchestra rehersals 2 times a week for six years almost without fail. That was easily the biggest learning experience for me. Watching an orchestra try to learn a new piece is an incredible experience as you will hear them first absolutely butcher the piece (an incredible experience in and of itself) and then you'll hear it slowly come together. Most importantly you'll hear the piece broken down by the various sections (nothing more educating than hearing a full orchestra piece broken down into section where major component of the piece are dropped and your left listening to either the foreground or background, depending on which part is being worked, and will be able to listen to the conductor as he explains what he wants out of the piece and then watch the players make their adjustments to match his/her vision of how it should be performed. Getting into orchestra rehearsals is much easier han you might imagine. Just ask, its never failed for me. I used to watch the Nashville symphony rehearse all the time when I lived there. I just called the office, told them I was a composer and that I'd love to watch some rehearsals and they told me yes and when to show up. If there is a college near you, its even easier to get into rehearsals and even easier to meet the conductor.

Which leads me to point B2. Meet the conductor, find out what they are performing at their next concert, get a copy of those scores and sit down with the conductor and ask him how he is going to approach the pieces, then watch the rehearsals and see how it works in the real world. At the college level, getting to meet the conductor and getting into rehearsals is a complete breeze. Just call and ask. It's never failed me yet and there is simply no better way to understand orchestral writing. None!

The link that Steve posted is an incredible resource. That book could be considered the bible and the online version of it is extremely well done.

Knock em out big B. Looking forward to hearing your masterpieces.

B

[hummingbird]

I just found this thread. Dunno how I missed it...

Second question: When you're writing an orchestral piece, how do you get started? To possibly make this a bit easier to answer, I'll ask a more specific question but feel free to give a generic or broader answer. If you were going to write something for the following listing, how would you get started, or what would the process be like?

UNIQUE, MODERN CLASSICAL/ORCHESTRAL INSTRUMENTALS in the wide range of Philip Glass, Michael Nyman, James Horner, John Cage, Hans Zimmer, Steve Reich, Thomas Newman, etc. are needed by an established Music Licensing company who provides content for major clients including Toyota, AOL, Google, Visa, Xbox, Adidas and more. You can see that the stylistic range is quite broad - you'll want to focus on arrangements that have dynamic build and movement, rather than ONLY static movement. Think in terms of unique and unexpected instrumentation, along with melodic elements that are compelling. A blend of contemporary and classical will be key for this one. Primarily, a unique and current/modern tone will be the most important factor - along with fantastic performances. Feel free to submit a variety of stylistic approaches here - ensemble pieces are recommended over any solo arrangements. Please submit 1-3 original instrumentals online or per CD. All submissions will be screened and critiqued by TAXI and must be received no later than January 5, 2009.

-I'd google all of these composers to see what they've done (not just gravitate to Thomas Newman, lol), maybe buy a download or two on iTunes to listen to the full composition
-I’d specifically look for the mix of elements on the tracks, how much is techno and how much is orchestral, to see what I can get away with, lol
-I’d figure out what style & mood my first track would be, decide on a working title
-then I’d work to set up the form and I’d begin to set out the percussive elements, keeping in mind the mood or atmosphere I want to create
-I’d build from there. Sometimes I’ll improvise over the bedtrack as I add lines. Other times I’ll look for interesting sounds and see how I can incorporate them.

This listing was right up my alley. I made 5 submissions and got 3 forwards. The screener did note that I was borderline on more than 1 track, that I didn’t always include enough orchestral elements.

Industrial Blue ("a cool piece, a ways off from the listing's specifics. Really creative stuff, Vikki. Forward.”)
http://www.vikkiflawith.com/audio/VIKKI ... _Blu-3.m3u

Red Knight of Brittany (“Appears to meet the primary elements of this listing in being unique and a current modern tone.”
http://www.vikkiflawith.com/audio/VIKKI ... Knight.m3u

Avalon Sorte ("nice, quirky piece of music ... love the sounds & unpredictability ...” the screener noted that there might not be enough classical elements here)
http://www.vikkiflawith.com/audio/VIKKI ... _Sorte.m3u

Returned:
Don’t Look Under the Bed (“This is an effective horror/suspense cue but it really has nothing to do with the listing which seeks classical minimalism or film music in a similar style. Please submit this for a horror listing because it's really good.”
http://www.vikkiflawith.com/audio/VIKKI ... k_Unde.m3u

Ride to Nowhere (On target, “You may want to focus on arrangements that have a stronger dynamic build and movement for an effective competitive edge.”)
http://www.vikkiflawithmusic.com/audio/ ... Nowher.m3u

I never heard back from the listing party, but, after tweaking the weaker compositions, I submitted them elsewhere and they are all signed.

I just thought I’d share the pieces I wrote for this listing and the screener comments in the hope it might be somewhat educational.

Cheers
Vikki

[mojobone]

Whew! This is definitely the deep end of the pool; where did I put those water wings?

[ernstinen]

Whew! This is definitely the deep end of the pool; where did I put those water wings?

You must've left them in La Mer!

Something I forgot to metion: When Dave Walton was out in L.A. awhile ago, I showed him my humble studio, but he was mostly interested by what I was doing in Performer (I think you were, Dave!). --- I do ALL my velocity changes, tempo changes (however slight they may be), note lengths etc. in Performer. I play all the parts in real time, and then spend the rest of my life tweaking things to make them so they sound realistic.

As has been said, actually "listening" to live orchestras, or better yet, playing in one, gives you real-time experience for how thing really work. I saw the L.A. Philharmonic a while ago with a guest conductor, and he had the 1st and 2nd violins to his left and right in the front. I never knew how much work the 2nd violins did until I saw it for myself from the third row. Wow! I almost saw sawdust on the floor!

Happy composing,

Ern

[bigbluebarry]

Vikki... It's possible that you missed it because I started it about one year ago I had forgotten about it until I saw it here on the "view new posts" page. Thanks for chiming in. And thanks to Bryan too!

It's been an interesting year since I made the initial post on this topic. I know there's some quotes out there about plans getting changed, etc... I didn't even come close to spending the time on learning orchestration as I had wanted to. But there's a good reason why... I was too busy writing cues for some library deals... thank you TAXI

I have a feeling that orchestration is going to be a lifelong process for me and that's ok. It really is. I expect to be doing this thing for a long time and I'll just have to work it in as I can.

As an update... last night I wrote my first ever non-guitar and non-percussion based cue ever. It's for a short film that I'm scoring with Lydia Ashton. The cue has kind of a dark, creepy, sinister type feel. Using lots of "sounds" in it, with some tremolo strings. VERY fun stuff!

Thanks again for everyone's input. I had this topic bookmarked on the old site and now I've got it bookmarked here.

- Big Blue