Finding the chords

[danieleinad]

BTW, I am learning a lot from you, and I thank you all.
Rob ,you spoke about lyrics, and this is another dilemma I have.
In Pop/Rock , although there are some songs with great lyrics, a lot of them don t .
I know that it would be easy to write about love and sex, but I don t know if I am so much interested to do so.
David byrne said something like lyrics should be non sense (I am not sure of what he said exactly)
Noel Gallagher said he s not sure to understand his songs (I am also not sure)

Lyrics are definetly important, but are there a requirement? I mean , if a song has a great melody, will it fail to be a hit because of its lyrics?
Daniel

[danieleinad]

Rob, you spoke about lyrics, and this is another dilemma I have. Of course there are important , but are there a requirement? I mean, if a song has a great melody, will it fail to be a hit because of its poor lyrics?
Daniel

[Casey H]

Lyrics are, of course, very important. But I've heard it said that the first thing many publishers such as in Nashville listen for is a great melody.

How important lyrics are varies a lot with what you are writing for.

To get a song cut in Nashville as am unknown writer, your song from top to bottom, music and lyrics have to be outstanding. The competition is extremely stiff. Country writers here will tell you how hard it is to get a Taxi forward for country-- 1-2 lyric lines that need tweaking can be enough to get a return.

If you are a rock/pop artist seeking a label deal, your lyrics will get pretty strongly looked at. No one is going to get excited if they feel they are reading the same old, been done before stuff.

Someone seeking a staff writer deal with a publisher... same thing-- lyrics need to be excellent.

The one place where you have more leeway is writing songs for film/TV. Not that you can get away with bad lyrics! But they may not have to 'walk on water' either. In film/TV, the overall mood and vibe, sound-like, production style, and production quality are big factors. Maybe a song has a good chorus that has universal appeal but the verse lyrics (though still universal) aren't the best in the world. Very important is that the lyrics have that universal appeal-- generally no specific names, places, very personal things, etc. "You Always Make Me Feel That Way" is obviously better than "I Love Susie on Elm Street".

But the bottom line is, if you are going to write songs with serious goals you should work on the lyric craft as well as the music.

Casey

[rnrmachine]

Hey Daniel,

It is all about the imagery, not necessarily the specific lyrics and I think that is where a lot of confusion begins. VERY simple words, which would seem beneath writers of higher standards can make for a totally amazing song. Robert Plant once admitted that "Stairway to Heaven" has no real meaning. Forget that it has no real meaning for the moment but focus on the picture we get as we listen to it. Take into account the imagery of just the hook alone... One can picture, their own version of a beautiful woman. Walking eloquently up to a set of magnificent stairs, looking angelic, majestic.. you can feel inspired by this vision, you can feel a sense of longing for this vision... you don't even need to describe the woman... the listener probably already has the vision of their dream girl already. You need trigger this vision of their dream girl... as a song writer. We may begin to wonder, why is she trying to buy that stairway to heaven? THUS people asked.. what do you mean she is buying a stairway to heaven??? People wanted to know. I know for me it was the biggest let down to learn he was just jamming as a singer when he wrote those lyrics and not really telling us a story. DO you really want to find yourself someday in a interview, where someone asks you about your lyrics, lyrics to a song that whether you like it or not, one has to admit it is a song for the ages... do you really want to say it has no meaning? Just food for thought there... Let's just jump on ahead to "Our shadows taller then our souls" this could mean many things so I will not go into MY version of what it means, but the imagery can NOT be mistaken. Where are the sophisticated words here? I see none, but I do see imagery done well!!! I find this in MANY hit songs... You might not be able to divulge a meaning from the song, but you can certainly pick out the imagery!!

I could go on with TONS of songs.. stupid ones, with stupid lyrics, talking about nothing other then being a shallow freak.. but they have imagery... whether it takes one brain cell to picture the clock on the wall going "Tic Toc" or a women.. backing that ass up... or better yet, you find yourself lost in a day dream from a single line in a song... it is ALL about the imagery in lyrics. Finding a way to tell a good story, in such few words... with good imagery... good luck dude!!! It's HARD!! Hard enough not to find yourself part way into a line and singing someone Else's song and then saying.. well scratch that one now... let alone coming up with something lyrically fresh.

OF COURSE the melody is EXTREMELY important, for me personally, often more important then the lyrics but ONLY in a COUPLE genres. ONCE I understand what the singer is singing though, if I find it to be junk I am very disappointed and may not recommend this song to a friend anymore, then word of mouth dies. You do not show up at their concerts because you have boycotted them because of their wretched lyrics, Instead of putting together a group of people going to that concert, you choose the concert that has the good melodies WITH the strong lyrics!!! Go back 50-60-70 years and there was a lot less competition, so many avenues yet unexplored. So many things undone in the music world. Now you have talent standing on the backs of talent, who stood on the backs of talent. When Jimi Hendrix played his chops not many people could do it... when he wrote his lyrics, not many had sang about those things in that way... back to today... MANY have sang about this and that... it's much harder now in certain ways.

Finally, Do NOT confuse poetry with songwriting, so many people go wrong here!! I can't stand most poetry, but when something is written with beautiful words, written eloquently.. I must admit, I am a SAP!!! I LOVE it... So I do love a good poem. The same holds true for music, again do NOT confuse poetry with lyrics. A good poem will make for a crappy song and vice-versa.

In the end, Hit lyrics with out the melody is nothing more then a crappy poem... a hit melody without lyrics is nothing more then a awesome instrumental AT BEST. Put them together and you have a hit song. The melody may "bait you" but the HOOK.. SNAGS you!!! The combination of the melody with the lyrical phrase... that is what becomes the baited "Hook" of a hit song.

So.. when you try and pitch this song to someone to "buy" from you. You can BET $$$ someone in their camp knows what is truly important and will not let them take a song on melody alone. MAYBE your melody would be so fresh that they would want a "re-write" on your subpar lyrics but do you really want to take a chance there? I have said it before and I will say it again, IF I am going to sing a song you wrote over my own, IT HAD BETTER BE AWESOME, this IS the song I am going to have to pay YOU for and it will get people into my music, hopefully... IF that song is just another album filler, then why the hell would I want it? If the lyrics are not hit lyrics.. why bother? When you are selling a song it had better be the BEST they can find, and trust me... they can find plenty of AWESOME songs!! But are they hits??

It is EASY to find someone to hate something with you... I find people trying to get me to fall into that all the time. Hate this, hate that.. hate that hit song because the lyrics are STUPID and the melody is simplistic.. I WILL ALWAYS recognize what was special about that song, even if I do not like it... AND I use the word song loosely for some hits I have heard. But they still have those key ingredients, which mixed just right.. give the song it's own "vibe" (going with Taxi lingo here hehe)

HTH,

Rob

[ernstinen]

O.K., guys! I guess we're getting pretty esoteric and quite voluminous in this exorbitant discussion!

Let's get back to to the basics: A good friend is trying to teach a piano student guitar chords. He called me up, and said "What do you recommend?"

I told him, "What I first learned on acoustic guitar, 'YELLOW SUBMARINE!' by The Beatles, was my turning point. If you can play THAT, then you're on your way!" Almost all the first position chords, major and minor, are in that one little diddy! He said "Wow! You're right!"

HTH,

Ern

[rnrmachine]

O.K., guys! I guess we're getting pretty esoteric and quite voluminous in this exorbitant discussion!

Let's get back to to the basics: A good friend is trying to teach a piano student guitar chords. He called me up, and said "What do you recommend?"

I told him, "What I first learned on acoustic guitar, 'YELLOW SUBMARINE!' by The Beatles, was my turning point. If you can play THAT, then you're on your way!" Almost all the first position chords, major and minor, are in that one little diddy! He said "Wow! You're right!"

HTH,

Ern

He asked and I gave him the SHORT version of what I have learned so far in my years of extensive study... HAHA

Wild Thing and Louie Louie are excellent examples of simplicity at work in chords and lyrics as well.

Rob

[Casey H]

I was recently teaching a little guitar to my teenage neice. One song that worked well was "Good Riddance (Time Of Your Life)" by Green Day. It only uses G, C, D, and Em. And it's one that most young people know.

Casey

[rnrmachine]

I was recently teaching a little guitar to my teenage neice. One song that worked well was "Good Riddance (Time Of Your Life)" by Green Day. It only uses G, C, D, and Em. And it's one that most young people know.

Casey

Funny how debated that song is as to what it means... I for one don't get how many people actually miss the true bitter meaning of it. The anger and the angst written into the lyrics.. it just goes to show... "Imagery" IS everything because people imagine it fits their moment even though the real meaning escapes them. Unless they are told of course...

No elaborate lyrics, no elaborate structure, very SHORT song but how popular did it become?!

Rob

EDIT: "It's something unpredictable but in the end is right, I hope you had the time of your life." Is him accepting and wishing all in that one line. I for one think it's a masterpiece of simplicity. Which most hit songs are.

[mojobone]

David Byrne said something like lyrics should be non sense (I am not sure of what he said exactly)

He said, and I quote, "Stop Making Sense!" He must have meant it, cuz he named one of his records that.

[ernstinen]

David Byrne said something like lyrics should be non sense (I am not sure of what he said exactly)

He said, and I quote, "Stop Making Sense!" He must have meant it, cuz he named one of his records that.

HaHaHa! Yup, that's what David Byrne said. But his lyrics DO make sense, in a bizarre way! Just like many of McCartney's later ones do (I think).

The other day when "my neighbor" shut off our water, I thought of the Talking Heads' song "Once In A Lifetime" --- about water. "Water at the bottom of the ocean. Same as it ever was." I looked and looked for the CD, or DAT, or whatever I had that song on. Couldn't find it. That's because I wanted to play it as loudly as possible (my bad!). I must have it on VINYL! --- I'll have to get my record player out (with a brand new cartridge, BTW), and record it onto CD so that I can listen to that again. I bought the vinyl record, so I guess I have the right to transfer it to CD! Great album!

Ern