sound quality check - orchestral

[richmstudios]

Wow - this has been GREATLY improved. I think you did a really nice job.

Rich

[MountainManMusic]

kclements- interesting input. since i am still getting used to my new EWQL libraries i "assumed" that a lot of that would be already taken care of as they talk a lot about the placement of each section and have panning set to the room it was recorded in (maybe its because im using GOLD version with only 1 mic position instead of the 5 available in the full version?) that or i completely misinterpreted what i was reading.

reverb is something that my ear has not quite figured out yet, so i err on the side of less is better. though i feel like i still crank the crap out of it when i do put it on. for YEARS i had only 1 reverb plugin to work with and it was super basic, now that i have several new ones and lots of presets and rooms to choose i know i have a lot to learn in the verb world...

I struggled with the mix in that i hear so many orchestral things where WW overpower brass or strings over power drums that it gets funky in my brain as to what is causing that to happen. but you are correct in that there is not much "mixing" going on. for the most part all faders are at the same level and i adjusted trim settings to balance volume. perhaps i should adjust the faders a smidge to break the "line" as you put it. again, my brain hasnt fully figured out the depth thing, conceptually i get what your saying but i dont have the "ah-ha" of experiencing that concept in a real world setting.

is it a combination of faders, reverb and delay that create depth?

Richmstudios- thanks for the compliment! we live in a world that is preoccupied with what is wrong that it is easy to gloss over whats good.


-Fuller

[mikeymike2000]

Hey Fuller,

This does sound a lot better!

Just a few suggestions to consider... or not.

In terms of levels, you might want to try keeping the front instruments higher up and lowering the instruments in the back.

Not to be a guy trying to pick out whats wrong but when we are talking about Taxi, we are competing with the best and brightest of the world... so to my ears, it still sounds a little bottom heavy in the arrangement.

The only other thing that really jumps out at me is the cello/bases have a lot of bow digging into the string that the audience would not really hear much of. Some is good but it seemed that almost all the notes had this. You can either try velocity changes as you have, or you may have to bring down the "filter" of the sample to less than 90% to give a more realistic sound. (That is something I have seen Mazz comment about more than once) each library is different but with a little playing around you will be surprised how much a small adjustment can make in the production. When I first tried that it was like an AH-HA moment.

The samples themselves are of good quality, but using them without any manipulation can be a give-away.

As always, just trying to be helpful here.

[6bq9]

Much improved, more natural feel to it now!

[MountainManMusic]

thanks Mike, though im not following you about the "filter" part. the rest makes sense.

this is more of a pet project so i am going for heavy bow "rosen" sound. not intending this for any TAXI listings more of a homework project per se. if it gets used great, i think this song might not be current enough for industry today.

i will try the level mixing next time im in the studio. getting close to packing everything up and moving so not much time to work on this anymore.

thanks for comments everyone!

-fuller

[mikeymike2000]

Hey Fuller,

Not sure how East West is set up but I imagine there has to be something similar to this... in VSL the sample has a series of on screen "sliders" or they can also be mapped to a mod wheel or MIDI controller slider. Anyway, there is a velocity X fader for live performance imitations, a "filter" and a few others.

The 'filter' one is like the humanistic velocity of the sampled note. If it is set to 127, it will be blazing trumpets of the brashiest nature you ever heard or white flakes of rosen exploding from the strings. If taken down to about 90 it still sounds very realistic but not as close to the instrument or as loud with all the full sample qualities.

This is very different from MIDI data velocity even though it sounds like the same thing. Another way to describe how the filter would be like moving the mic back without capturing any ambient noise or losing quality of sampled data.

I am almost positive you would have this feature already.

Have a great trip!

[MountainManMusic]

mike- oddly enough there is very LITTLE that i can control (or at least that i have figured out how to control yet) the velocity thing seems to be the only filter i have control over. like 127 is blaring trumpets, but 60 is a warm rich sound. mainly how the attack of the note sounds.

again i only have one mic position with the GOLD package so im limited that way. other wise i think i follow your explanation. there are separate faders for each mic position pre built in the VST instrument but again i only have one mic position active to work with so its kind of a mute point on adjusting that fader--- unless that is the point i am missing here--

as for the humanistic performance part i have found that the MODULATION automation setting does seem to offer some control over vibrato and some of the timbre of those velocities but it depends on the particular patch i have loaded (sometimes the mod setting does nothing that i can discern). still so much to learn and become comfortable working with regarding this library.

each project i do i learn something new, so that's good at least. i like to be learning, makes me feel alive.

-fuller

[mikeymike2000]

Hey Fuller,

Hmm, I don't know the inner workings of the library so I guess something to keep in mind for when the time is right to add to the toy box.

A possible work around could be a reverb on the individual track to soften it up a bit. Not sure, I am still and always will be learning as well.

Keep at it!

Funny story: the filter thing I am talking about moving is the same thing I looked at everyday for 6 months and never once considered moving it to see what it does. - I believe you, just wanted to share a laugh.

[mazz]

I didn't hear the first version so I can't comment on the improvements but first I think you've got a nice composition here. It hangs together thematically and it goes somewhere. Often I hear early orchestral work where it sounds like the sounds drove the composition but here the piece sounds like a piece of music that has been orchestrated. That's preferred, IMO!! Nice work!

I started out a few years ago with EW Platinum so I'm pretty familiar with the library and it's sounds and some of it's strengths and weaknesses. Here's a few tips:

1. I'm not sure if anyone mentioned CC11 but for any non-DXF patches, it's crucial that you assign a fader or pedal to CC11 (known as Expression control) and start to use it. It's basically programmed as a volume control that also has timbre control so you get control over the note after it's initial timbre has been established with velocity.

2. Change articulations during a phrase. Another "rookie move" in digital orchestration that I hear often is simply calling up a legato patch and using it for the entire phrase. Orchestral music simply isn't written that way. Study any John Williams score and you'll see great care and detail has been put into defining the articulations the player is to play to make the phrase sing. Really sit back and think about that oboe part and decide which notes are to be connected and which should be individually articulated, whether it's stacatto or marcato or whatever. I'm talking about within the same bar if necessary!! You'll need multiple tracks or you'll need to load up a keyswitch and choose your articulations that way (takes up more memory, a tradeoff). You may need two flavors of legato and some stacatto and marcato patches for one oboe part! Yes, 4 MIDI tracks and 4 articulations just for one solo oboe passage! The same goes for every instrument of your orchestra. You simply must learn how to change articulations during your phrases in order to make your orchestrations sound more convincing.

3. DXF patches. The name means Dynamic Cross Fade. These patches make no sound until you move the modulation wheel (CC1). They are extremely useful in creating expressive legato lines because they are not dependent on velocity. Velocity is fine for certain types of passages, but if you need expressive crescendos, you need to learn to use the DXF patches.

General notes on what I heard:

Sample libraries feature each section in it's best light, which is not always the best way to present it in an ensemble setting. A close mic'd oboe that sings over the orchestra with it's full frequency response sounds unnatural because an oboe sitting behind the strings loses some of it's high frequencies by the time it reaches the audience 30 or 60 or 100 feet away. In order to create a natural sounding ensemble sound, you need to take the laws of physics into account. In your piece, everything sounds like it is competing, with no sense of depth of field. Make the instruments that sit in the back of the band less bright by limiting the velocity, CC11, CC1, whatever.

Some of the other issues like the phrasing in the trumpet and oboe can be helped by paying closer attention to the legato and short articulations within the phrases as mentioned above.

I think you have a good innate grasp of orchestration and thinking about some of the things I mentioned will get you a little further in your mastery of the tools.

Also remember that composition and orchestration are two distinct operations. Get a great melody and form going first and then use orchestration to show them in their best light. Don't get bogged down in the sounds at the composition stage. The strong melody and composition will suggest the best orchestration.

Enough rambling!

Nice work,

Mazz

[MountainManMusic]

thanks MAZZ!

lots of great info in there. thanks for weighing in. i follow you on the articulations and multiple midi lines per instrument, im already doing that in here for brass and strings. i did the best i could with the wood winds since they are a KONTACT library and frankly i dont think the two libraries are even in the same league, but its what i got for now so im making due. i do have keyswitches in and thats the best i think i can do for now. i will have to check but i think i am using CC11 so good to know im on the right track there! maybe it is CC1 though. dang now i will have to check.

i spent the most time working the trumpet solo and oboe solo but have not felt satisfied with either...one of those law of diminishing returns things now. dont want to touch them as i have spent SOOOOO much time on them i dont feel like i am fixing but rather mucking it up more.

i did like you part about the EQ and how things are recorded in the best light. i had reworked the song before reading your post and it feels like i kind of went that direction anyway (maybe i felt you typing it). i noticed that some of the reverb i was working in kind of naturally dulled those back of the bus people, and i kept thinking "why does it sound so dark now?" but it kind of works...

your right this was composed first and orchestrated later, i was digging through my archive and found it from one of my orchestration classes back in college. figured it would be a good way to really learn how to perform with EWQL having the music already written.


ok one more updated file version posted to the soundcloud please feel free to check it out.

https://soundcloud.com/jess-fuller/memo ... ten-16-bit

i swear this is the final revision!

-fuller