Sincerity, "Sincerity", Irony, Earnestness, Coolness, Pop

[feaker66]

Been signing my post the same way for seven years.

Sincerely

Paul

[Casey H]

What about those of us that are writing for specific listings to match certain "ala's", are we at least sincere in our insincerity?

eo

I sincerely hope so.

Casey

[GlennPageMusic]

Hmmm - I'm seeing a lot of good points here, but I still have a slightly different take.

I guess, if I distill it down, the first point I was going for - although there are many - is that a listing that asks for sincerity (and there are a lot of them) may actually want sincerity, but in reality, what is actually being sought FOREMOST is a song that is perceived as sincere by the majority of its intended demographic. May seem trivial, but it's a very different thing. If the artist is sincere too -well, that's a nice bonus, and it certainly may HELP them get to where they need to be, but I would argue it is not essential, and it is not the most sought after quality.

Think about the whole "indie" film movement - at one time (maybe sometime in the late 90s or so?) it's easy to imagine that all the quirky characters and hipster, ironic dialouge and in-the-know soundtracks and crude, squiggly title sequences rang very "sincere," and most often WERE sincere. But at some point, well before the mainstream caught on, the corporations and ad exec's appropriated these symbols and started using them as a sort of shorthand to INDICATE sincerity and "realness." They may not specifically want the squiggly letters anymore, but they still want whatever the current signifiers are.

My point with Roxy Music (the early records) was how cleverly they sidestepped the whole issue by embracing the artifice of pop music product -but were completely sincere in their artistic intent. They played with the artificiality of the pop form, while still recognizing that those "silly, fake" records still represent something big and important about us as human beings. It's a fluid interpretation of pop music where sncerity, genuine affection and emotion are bedfellows with a knowing irony, cynicism, and understanding of consumer culture. *********************************************** Russell, the method actor analogy is a good one, and it does apply in many cases. It doesn't always apply though because we don't expect an actor to be the same as the parts they play to the same extent (many people) expect an artist to embody the ideas they represent. Yes, some people are shocked to find out an actor is not as "nice" as the roles they play, but in general, the distinction between role and actor is much clearer - at least when it comes to what people regard as the "real" genres - i.e., singer-songwriter, indie (by and large), country, etc.

To illustrate, not many people would be upset to learn that John Travolta is not a hit man. Many people would be devastated to find out that Bruce Springsteen (hypothetically) didn't give two sh*ts about the working man in real life. We can get into a lot of trouble with these labels of "sincerity" and being "real." It can lead down an endless rabbit hole, among other things. Many of the distinctions are garbage/bullcrap.

And, yes, while I agree with the whole notion that sincerity is in the ear of the beholder - and it's an intangible and a value judgement and all that - there must be SOME tangible qualities being asked for in the listings, or else why would the listings ask for "sincerity" at all? "

In other words, you can't quantify an intangible, so the only things people can point to as being "sincere" or "insincere" (without direct access to the artist's intent) are some combination of TANGIBLE factors (voice, phrasing, production, lyrical and subject choices, etc., tone, approach, voice) which a current demographic tends to perceive as "sincere."

That is, the symbols of sincerity, at best, render actual sincerity irrelevant. At worst, they trump sincerity every time. Perhaps that's a trivial observation, but so be it.

[GlennPageMusic]

What about those of us that are writing for specific listings to match certain "ala's", are we at least sincere in our insincerity?

eo

I know you're just making a joke, but it does raise a whole slew of philosphical questions.

For my money, this word -which crops up all the time - is a bit problematic. Even if you buy into the concept, Taxi is requesting something that can't be tested, tasted, proven, demonstrated or measured, and yet the listings regularly asks for songs that meet this criteria as though it were some quality in the real world. How is this possible? (See next paragraph for answer.)

Well, it's possible because - as I stated earlier - the listings are not REALLY looking for sincerity as we commonly understand it, they are looking for the cultural signifiers of sincerity as usually perceived by a certain demographic. Sure, sincerity itself in a song can be a nice bonus, but it's certainly not the foremost requirement.

Human sincerity is sloppy and messy and expresses itself in a million different ways. And yet, amazingly, a narrow set of signifiers crop up time and time again in pop culture to represent this phenomenon! Wow, what a coincidence that is, HUHN? Hear those hushed vocals and stripped down arrangement? Hear that simple three chord progression? Hear that emotional (but not TOO emotional) delivery that sounds like a world-weary traveller? Hear that reference to "real" things in the lyrics??? Hear those "Americana" instruments??? Hear that quasi-celtic choir and "big music" sound??? WHOA! They MUST be sincere!

(Please note: The above qualities are just some of the current signifiers and are subject to change in a year or so.)


I'm sorry, but by and large, I'm not buying it. Maybe it's because I'm a songwriter myself but I can almost always see the person behind the curtain or the gears turning. Or maybe I'm just an asshole. Quite possible, mind you.

Anyway, that's why I almost prefer the lack of pretense on (some) pop records. Sure, it may be cheesy pop, but at least it acknowledges it's cheesy pop and doesn't try to trick me into thinking it's something more profound.

And no - I'm not so naive as to think there is no intersection between commerce and art. I'm not even saying there SHOULDN'T be an intersection. Some of the best art has been created under commercial conditions. However, I think if anyone takes a good look at what's being asked for in these listings - it's not sincerity first and foremost but the trappings of sincerity as currently recognized by a particular demographic. (Like I said, actual sincerity is nice, but it's really just a bonus.)

Now, to be fair, there really isn't anything one can judge sincerity BY other than the signifiers - if they truly are seeking such a thing. Still, am I the only one who feels that the current indicators of sincerity in pop culture (see a partial list above) are dubious measures of the trait, at best? I hear the stuff that passes for sincere these days and I'm almost immediately inclined to think NOT sincere, just because I know so many of the shortcuts.

As such, I'd much prefer they throw the "A las" of a "sincere" artist at me and leave it at that. But hey, that's just me...

After all, you never DO see a listing that says, "We want the artist to be completely full of SH*T!!!!" do you? Hmmmm...

[Russell Landwehr]

Glenn

Wow! Your last two postings completely clarified your position much better than the earlier ones... and I'll say it again. WOW!
And I loved your analogies... 'specially the one about Bruce.

And...

EXACTLY!

And I look at TAXI listings that are looking for "budget versions of the real thing" for TV/Film. And I think that what they want is the illusion of sincerity, using all of the parameters you mentioned... or mixing and matching as may be needed. 'Specially since the stuff for TV/Film can be one-off's that don't sit under the microscope... but they don't want some wanker obviously pretending to be "sincerely" messed up because his "girlfriend" left him for "somebody" who found the perfect rhyme for orange. I think in those listings what they want is something believable that no one is gonna google to make sure that the singer actually experienced the trauma because the singer might never really appear in the credits. But TAXI (and the music supe) would certainly hit the gold mine if the guy submitting to the listing actually had a beard, and mumbled into the microphone about his true-life experiences about becoming a hermit in Alaska after his girlfriend woke up from a coma to fall in love with the physical therapy doctor.

I have the feeling, though, that you and I are on the outside of this looking in.

There are TONS of TAXI members who are a part of this lifestyle and genre who can look at themselves in the mirror and walk away "sincere." That's where we jump into the realm of "artistry" and the already "developed" Singer-Songwriter, or whatever, that the "Labels" are looking for... then the illusion (or reality) better stand up to some serious scrutiny (based on CURRENT standards) or else it will be Milli Vanilli all over again.

BTW.

After all, you never DO see a listing that says, "We want the artist to be completely full of SH*T!!!!" do you? Hmmmm...

I LOVED THAT!


Russell

[GlennPageMusic]

Ha!

Very funny post, Russell. (You gotta love any post that uses "wanker"!) And you're right, we probably are on the outside looking in...

Story of my life, man.

Thanks for your thoughtful response.


Glenn

[liam kelly]

What a distracting thread.

A load of negativity directed at contemporary artists, digs at Mumford and Sons, disrespect shown to artists who struggle to make a living by emulating feelings instead of feeling them, comparisons to Bryan Ferry (Bryan Ferry, ffs, the Bowie-copycat, a victim of the British class system born to a poor farmer and whose sole objective in life was to prove he was better than that), well.. I don't know what to say.

But, I'll say this. At the risk of sounding Thompson-esque - running down that corridor of the music industry - I don't care who you are or how you've cracked it; this is a killer industry and if you're making money from it, you have my sincere respect.

As for Taxi, they're giving you opportunities. Take them as best you can or get lost. But, for God's sake, don't complain about them.

[GlennPageMusic]

What a distracting thread.

A load of negativity directed at contemporary artists, digs at Mumford and Sons, disrespect shown to artists who struggle to make a living by emulating feelings instead of feeling them, comparisons to Bryan Ferry (Bryan Ferry, ffs, the Bowie-copycat, a victim of the British class system born to a poor farmer and whose sole objective in life was to prove he was better than that), well.. I don't know what to say.

But, I'll say this. At the risk of sounding Thompson-esque - running down that corridor of the music industry - I don't care who you are or how you've cracked it; this is a killer industry and if you're making money from it, you have my sincere respect.

As for Taxi, they're giving you opportunities. Take them as best you can or get lost. But, for God's sake, don't complain about them.

Hi Liam.



I don't remember making a dig at Mumford and Sons - I actually like Mumford and Sons. The point was not to run down Mumford and Sons, the point was to ask questions about the notion of sincerity in the context of commercial music and how it is regarded and used, and what does it say about artistic expression in a commercial medium. i have nothing against Mumford and Sons, although I do have an issue with certain affectations and productions being regarded as immediately "more sincere" on the basis of seemingly arbitrary standards.

And it does make me wonder whether it is the affectations which are often being adopted over the actual sincertiy.

That is, the post was all about aesthetic questions and analysis. It was about the deeper meaning of value-judgement words that we think we undertand, but most people never really probe beyond the surface (which, honestly, is fine in everyday life, but a bit more questionable when it's being used as though it were a tangible artistic gauge). It was about the use of irony, theatrics, homage, and artifice as ways around the sincerity question or as another means OF sincerity. As I stated at the onset, the discussion is probably beyond the scope of taxi and is probably more of a songwriting/art discussion in general.

As far as personal digs, I was only talking about Ferry's artistic contributions, and it is actually you who are taking a personal dig at someone - that someone being Bryan Ferry. I know all about Ferry's origin and history and I also know Bowie regarded him as one of the UK's best songwriters. (You can easily verify that by checking "Bowie talks about bryan ferry" on youtube!)

Also, I never said I don't have respect for people who make it in this industry or that I don't appreciate the services that taxi offers. I've told them as much many times. But I differ from you in the sense that I don't think respectiing successful songwriters or appreciating taxi is the same as saying that there can be no room for debate about artistic merit or that the words we use in music's commerce and creation should never be discussed or analyzed.

I actually think you missed the point of most of what I wrote. You clearly missed the point of the Bryan Ferry discussion if all you walked away with is "he's a social climber." However, I can kinda understand missing the point to an extent; I did write a lot and I'm not 100 percent clear on all these concepts myself.


I will say that saying "OR GET LOST" is far more negative than anything I wrote, though.

G.

P.S. It's too much to go back and re-articulate all the fine points of the discussion but I know I also explicitly stated in there somewhere that I have nothing against commercial music and that a lot of the best music is made UNDER commercial constraints. In fact, there were many fine points that you seemed to have glossed over in a rush to condemn me, but I kind of expected this to happen, so I probably have no one to blame myself. I really do wish I could live by the credo "Don't rock the boat, don't ask questions, shut up and be grateful for what you got, ingrate" - trust me, it would make my life a whole lot easier...

[liam kelly]

Glenn

Thanks for your reply. At the start of your thread, you vented your frustration, if that's not too strong a word, about 'sincerity being bandied about'. I assumed, being a Taxi forum, that your context fell somewhere within your Taxi experience.

There is no argument about the most commercial art being sometimes insincere; in the sense that it doesn't feel truly written from the heart, or written for the 'right' reasons. But I don't know, I admit, how that is relevant. Over the centuries, much of the greatest art has been born from an exchange of money, here's a tenner and I want a symphony. An exchange viewed by many artistes as the least sincere of all.

I got from your posts that you felt a perceived lack of sincerity made that art less relevant, or important, or, simply, less good. Most of us just care that a piece moves us a bit and that an excellent piece moves us tremendously. The motivations behind the piece, or the care that the artist has used to show us his open veins, are not apparent to most people. Me included. And I wonder if it's important?

As for my Taxi comments, I'm not on these boards at all now but I used to be. A lot. We had many Taxi bashers over the years and I lumped you in with them. Rightly or wrongly.

My 2c, I would struggle to put Ferry and sincerity on the same page, never mind in the same sentence.

Liam

[shoodBworkin]

Sincerity vs. Integrity?

If you fan responds sincerely to your song and buys it does it matter if you were sincere when you wrote it?

I'd guess "no".

Might integrity compel you to come clean, to inform that fan of your insincerity, knowing your confession may render that fan unable to ever again respond sincerely to ANY of your songs?

I'd guess "no".

Do taxi screeners care about your sincerity?

I'd guess "no".