Vocal Training

[dcandco]

Not to get in the middle of your arguments. But I would love a completely hands free (no book required) effective, vocal and ear training lesson (s) that I can work with while driving, working, or cooking. Would also like something that trains on vocal harmonies, for someone that struggles that situation.I thinks that is what ajenlz was asking for when he wrote this post.ThanksDave

[ajenkz]

Exactly and thank you. I'll use that information for my own stuff. But also, if your interested I can recommend several programs that i've used that would be perfect for you. Send a PM if you want the names of those products.

[squids]

[quote author=ajenkz board=general thread=1200526625 post=1200765984]Your a very fine singer, but when I listen I can't hear you ever pulling off a soulful R&B song or power driven Rock song. Thats my issue with a lot of teachers who teach more traditional methods; they preach it can work for anything, but when you listen to their own voices, they can't pull it off without sounding odd. Same thing can be said with me singing classical; it sounds awful because I don't know the rules of the genre so I choose not to deal with it personally or with my students.quote]Again, I'm completely confused.....I'm not tooting my own horn here but I think it might be safe to say I can pull off some soulful R/B and a rock song or two. That's jes mho, though. I use classical techniques to do both. I also use pop techniques, etc, in order to make my voice sound more commercially acceptable. I learned these things from years of studying both commercial and other music. I know the rules involved in jazz, R/B, blues, classical. You say you have training, you want to train, but you do not have a background in classical training. Okay. So you're telling me that you're using the latest scientific methods to back up the training you're offering (which you're doing. You're offering, whether you agree or not). If you truly are, you'd know that hearing is not the same thing as singing. There are some singers who can intuit how another singer is pulling off one technique or other. But not many. Hearing it is not the same thing as singing it. Listening to a CD of singing while sitting in my car is going to cause a few problems......if I'm mis-hearing it, I'm going to be making mistake after mistake; I'm also not giving it my full attention and focus (I hope, otherwise beware the imminent traffic accident), thus lending myself to even more potential for errors. I've been a huge fan of many different kinds of singers over the years, many of them blues singers. All of whom destroyed their voices deliberately to produce a certain sound that indicates "road-worn" and "road-worked." I love that sound. I also know what it cost them to get it. Lots of improper, forward-and-upward head tilting, jaw-dishing that cuts off the phayrnx and layrnx, thus promoting a husky, almost weary quality. Things like that. All commercially acceptable. Yet all destined to doom the voice to a short shelf-life. Deliberately done. Also very easily done. In the car, in the shower, wherever, if singing is done improperly without some physical guidance.I'm not doubting the science behind good singing. I'm just waiting to hear your voice. The proof is in the gumbo.

[ajenkz]

All good points. I do have the ability to hear whats going on with someone when I hear an unprocessed voice, and that is important. If I couldn't hear things like where tension is occuring based on the sounds people are making, I wouldn't be teaching because I feel thats necessary.Classical technique is good. A lot of times, it won't carry over if someone is too far into training to get that classical sound, thats all im saying. Im not doubting that people with classical training can sound amazing because I know many, its just not always the case. Again, theres so much to cover that im not 100% clearly explaining myself.Science is important to use, but thats not all I use. I mix everything together and come out with ways to help someone. Thanks to studying anatomy and such though, i've learned there ARE ways to produce that blues grit without destroying your voice. None of the old school singers ever used it, however many new ones do. Johnny Lang for example has trained with my main coach, so I assume based on that and hearing him that hes doing it correctly, although I haven't heard any live performances of him to see if hes slacking. Its all a matter of safe manipulation of the vocal tract to activate the false folds, or to utilize the uvula & entire soft palate in some cases to produce that sound.

[dcandco]

Hey Squids, No questions your vocals kick it on the gambit of styles and genres! No question a good teacher infront of you is better than learning from a book or a CD. But learning is good, and practicing your intervals, while you're driving, (a repeat after me format) or hanging drywall, or preparing a meal, is time well spent, and it would be a delight to have a tool that would help me in the specifics that I want to work on at the time. Where other wise i might not have time to do it at all.Hope all is well!Dave

[squids]

Hey Dave!!I get what you're saying and certainly, people have been singing and hanging drywall (or whatever) for....well, ......ever. It's important that although the teacher might have the intuition to pick up on a student's technique, the student might not have the intuition to pick up on the teacher's technique. That's all I'm saying.

[matto]

The difference between talking lessons with a qualified/quality vocal coach and studying with a book/tape/online method is like the difference between seeing a qualified/quality physician and using something like Web Md.If you're not actually sick, Web MD works just fine... If you happen to do everything "right" vocally and have no problems, a tape or book or such can work...but it can't tell you if you're doing something wrong and are potentially doing damage to your voice. Nor can it actually "coach" you and help you with any specific problems or challenges you may be facing.I don't think anybody serious about their voice would rely on a tape/book/online method. Just like nobody would rely on Web MD for their healthcare.matto

[ajenkz]

Dave brings up a good point; I personally use the CD/DVD techniques to learn new things, and then I just put the CD onto my iPod and use it to warm up backstage before a performance, while im driving, to warm up in the morning, etc. Thats the way most people utilize this kind of stuff, and theres nothing wrong with it.Good analogy by matto too actually. If your vocally healthy and need a refresher, a warm up routine, to practice ear training, whatever, this type of stuff is perfect. If not though, its best to also or instead of, work with a private teacher.Notice how I didn't refer to my own methods This goes for anyone really. I promote good vocal technique in whatever form you can get it.

[hummingbird]

Hey, I think Matt hit it on the head. And to get more personal - Ajenkz and I have a different sort of clientele. My students, generally speaking, have difficulties singing because of psychological and/or physical problems & are frustrated with their inability to find their voices or even sing on key at all. They are not interested in being professional rock singers or r & b singers or opera singers, although they might want to be introduced to a technical foundation for a short period of time before moving on to coach with someone in their chosen field. If anything they may be performing songwriters or songwriters who wish they could sing their own stuff better. A couple of them may have tried other approaches (like books & CDs) and even sometimes other teachers, without good results. This kind of student requires a different kind of approach, very hands-on, very personal, very supportive. IMHO this is the best approach anyway, no matter what the experience of the student, but of course I understand that there are other methods of delivery. I just think this is much preferable for best results. Personally, for me, I'd rather have a real relationship with my students, that involves both me & them in the process of discovering & releasing their voice. Without that, teaching would have little meaning to me. My students teach me as much as I teach them, and their presence in my studio is a gift in my life. H'Bird

[sgs4u]

Doesn't it really all depend on what sound a singer is trying to create with their voice? As vocal artists, we have more ego attached to the sound of our own voice than most instrument-only musicians have. But as Taxi members, doesn't the greatest success come when we learn how to tailor our skills to listings? I would suggest, many great vocalists on here have had many moments when they wish they could go after listings that are outside of their comfort zone, or usual singing techniques. Cats like Bryan Adams and Rod Stewart would seem to be a lot more prone to irreparable damage, and the tone of their voices really reflects that. But if I could personally choose who's voice would help my writing career, then those are the guys I would emulate. Squids makes reference to the blues singers who purposely damage their voices to get a certain kind of tone. Howlin' Wolf comes to mind, hehe. I've seen it many times. A young gun smokes, hangs in smokey nightclubs, drinks beer & scotch to lubricate his voice, and all of those things are deplorable to most singing teachers. But to me, as writer/producer/band guy, that is the sound I most love to work with. (And why I love Bill Gaunce's voice so much) So when I get clients, of parents who are looking for vocal teachers, I'm very careful to direct them towards teachers whose personalities mirror the students wishes (and the parents). I look it as the same thing as teaching an instrument, like guitar. Teach what the student is looking to create, or the student gets bored and leaves. My whole concept of teaching music, is about enrolling a student of music, into wanting to keep learning and experiencing. All of us on here have to learn keyboards and how to imitate instruments with our libraries. It doesn't matter whatsoever if you have great keyboard technique, unless you're trying to play legit piano stuff that requires it. When I need new information, I always use a combination of reading, AND talking with someone who has a personal relationship/experience with me, to help. So a CD or DVD, would be a great thing to help my voice personally, but it could never replace face to face help from a very qualified coach. I remember this awesome story about the drummer of Fleetwood Mac. He was asked in an interview what his practice regimen is, and who his inspirational drummers are. He responded by saying, he has no practice techniques, and has no desire to change or learn anything new whatsoever. Because he's played on a bunch of records that sold millions, he felt that learning anything new, could actually get in the way. And truthfully, from my perspective, I understand that point of view perfectly. Why should he change what he does, when it already works perfectly? Another great singer I used to work with, would gargle Tabasco sauce when she had a cold. Who am I to tell her that was wrong? She thought it was effective, and it got her thru some shows, when her voice was less than healthy. When there's an audience who've paid good money to see the high diving act, who wants to cancel? Sometimes there isn't anything to fix, except confidence. Whatever gets you there, is worth investigating. But this forum has lots of new people that show up, think they have something really special to offer, and then begin telling us about their product. I usually tell them to get lost. But in your case, ajenkz, I didn't get that you were trying to sell, more than you were trying to share. Using the CD/DVD to warm up backstage, is pretty brilliant if you ask me. I've often been jealous of guitar players who can simply walk around with their instrument, before shows, getting all warmed up and at one with their hands and instruments. Piano players don not have that luxury, unless it's a big show or tour, with all kinds of stuff backstage. There are many paths to enlightenment. Another way to say that, is there's lotta different ways to skin a cat. Both sentences say the same thing, but cause different reactions in the reader. This thread just shows us how personal that learning is.