Summing (D-Box by Dangerous)

[jmarkinman]

Wow, thanks everyone for your input! I wasn't expecting all this help!

I very much agree that my arrangements need to be better. I do want to defend my skills as an arranger to say that every track except one on my soundcloud page is a demo and were done in just a night or two... i.e. I was mostly just focusing on the writing with the idea that I would come back to the song later if I wanted to do a final arrangement for a releasable album. I definitely understand the criticism and I am well aware of it. The big problems that we all hear in my tracks (the 2k-6k boosts, over compression, etc.) mostly happen at the mastering/summing phase of tracking when I'm trying to get that "sweet, warm and loud" sound. And I'm wondering if just a bit more headroom with an analog summer could do the trick. Maybe I need some better mastering pluggins (I'm just using what comes with Logic pro).


/jmark

[Len911]

My guess is that you are squashing the hell out of the mix to achieve loudness, and then trying to compensate by adding eq to bring back the sweetness and warmth that was there before the compression/limiting stage. And now you are wondering if analogue distortion might be a better option so that you don't have to use so much compression? Does that "sum" up what you are saying?

If you lightly use a compressor on every track to control peakiness, and don't squash the sound you will retain most of the sweet and warm if it was there before, and people can crank up their own volume knob. If "loud" is your primary objective, just forget about the sweet and warm. Distortion is a whole other effect, warm, but not as sweet. It's a balancing act. And as you are aware, arrangement has a major impact as well. Don't worry, all the squashed recordings I am sure left a lot of "sweet and warm" on the cutting room floor as well,lol!

[andygabrys]

the built-in fx in Logic are plenty powerful enough without adding a bunch of third party stuff. I think you will do just fine to stick with what you have.

A lot of the third party stuff is just different slants on the same thing - i.e. UAD 1176 or Waves CLA-76 more or less = Logic compressor with the FET model. Waves C4 more or less = Logic Multipressor.

What is the rest of your setup like? who knows, the $1500 might better be spent on a better set of monitors. just talking here.

[jmarkinman]

My guess is that you are squashing the hell out of the mix to achieve loudness, and then trying to compensate by adding eq to bring back the sweetness and warmth that was there before the compression/limiting stage. And now you are wondering if analogue distortion might be a better option so that you don't have to use so much compression? Does that "sum" up what you are saying?

Not at all, Len... I generally squash after the EQ... which isn't much better than the chain you describe since it's still squashed... And the D-Box is supposed to be transparent and not distort the sound at all, but just give headroom to make mixing easier in the DAW (if i understand it correctly).

What is the rest of your setup like? who knows, the $1500 might better be spent on a better set of monitors.

I have KRK V8s, which I'm pretty happy with right now. I'd like to get a new vocal mic, right now I'm using a AKG C4000B which is kind of pinchy for my vocals and a lot of the mix problems come in with the voice... I've had a lot less trouble with mixing a different mic. I have a UA-610 preamp, which is nice, but I'm having trouble finding the "sweet spot" I get it every once and a while, but then I change instruments and have trouble finding it again (I guess next time I find it, I should write it down...). I also have Komplete 8, a MOTU traveler, an 88 key controller, 2 electric guitars (washburn idol prototype and mexican strat), Ibenez SDGR bass, a Breedlove Passport, a violin (with pickup) AKG c1000S pair and a few sm57s/58s. No drums, but I'm trying to convince my friend to move his in and start a band.

And in terms of my mixes and masters, I feel like I'm at that peak of the learning curve where in a couple more steps I'll be right where I want, but I'm exhausted from all of the previous climbing, so those last few steps will be challenging... and it will just be one or two things that make my tracks into a pro quality MASTER (better than broadcast quality and competitive with major label recordings).

After I started this thread, I won a poker tournament (beginner's luck?), so, I have a few extra bucks (c. 4-5k) to spend and am now seriously considering getting "Waves Mercury" I really miss the Renaissance bundle from my pirate days (that deesser solved so many problems I can't solve with logic...) and there are some really cool things in mercury that I'd love to experiment with, like the NLS summing and the producer packs.

So now, I'm thinking, instead of the DBox, I'd get Waves Mercury + a smoother microphone... I'm leaning towards one of the new Telefunkens... also thinking Gemini II...

I think I'll find a mastering limiter and EQ I like in Waves, plus the NLS.

[mojobone]

I'll go out on a limb here, and suggest that you investigate the many uses of subtractive EQ.

[JamieMuffett]

I would say the very first thing you should do is put a DeEsser as the first insert on your vocal channels!! Maybe even two.

- Jamie

[rnrmachine]

... when I'm trying to get that "sweet, warm and loud" sound. And I'm wondering if just a bit more headroom with an analog summer could do the trick. Maybe I need some better mastering pluggins (I'm just using what comes with Logic pro).


/jmark

I know exactly what you are trying for... it's the same thing that most bands/artist want from the studio they are working in... without any doubt. I find myself walking a thin line and often falling over the edge onto the "too loud" and losing quality side. But how quiet is too quiet and when are we loud enough to compete?... Genre should help dictate that but I have read a lot on this subject and I would recommend aiming for -10db RMS (not peak). It's a great place to learn how to be loud without turning semi pro gear into loud crap.

Also, like mojo and I said, mojo probably didn't read what I said so... without even knowing he said it too, learn to cut to make room for stuff. Let's say ya start with a big bag full of air and it's filled your whole closet but now you need to make room for your bowling ball. Gotta let some air out of that bag, maybe build a little shelf on the left side 4 feet off the ground so your ball will fit nicely there. Maybe another thing over on the right wall to balance things out? A little more air out of the bag again.

The analogy is done in music by cutting a notch in your "main" (bag) sound on the left side, then panning, adding a little verb to get the guitar (bowling ball) to "float" IF that's where you want it. I know this is vague, but I could quote a few books and tell you my take on things and all I would do is write a post so big, no one would wanna read it.

I am sure you get the point... don't just cram your closet full without making room (guilty myself in the past). It don't look, nor sound professional. Seriously spend some time listening to pro mixes. And what I mean by pro mixes is.. anything that sounds high quality (or just really cool) no matter what it's played on... any system, any where, etc...

Also, take notice of the tones... the sounds that draw you in, DID that tone really keeping going? OR did the mixing engineer slip it back in the mix a bit.. creatively making room for the rest to join in... or vice versa... pay seriously close attention to the amount of work that went into the mix alone... How the drums may have started out BIG but once other things come in.. how creatively they slid back... as the bass guitar came in... etc...

I am NOT saying everything has to be Hi-Fi, just quality tones put together well will do.

I understand the "demo" statement ya made too... most of my stuff is in that situation as well... OR it was "practice" work to see how well I could achieve this or that, depending on what I was trying to learn at the time. I am just concerned that you are thinking a summing box will solve all your problems... like all ya'd have to do is run your stuff through it and BAM they'd sound pro now... that is NOT the case and you would be in for a big disappointment. BUT don't take my word for it, go rent one...

Good Luck in all ya do!!! and keep at it... you're VERY good. You have more than a couple tracks that would go places in the Film/TV business imho.

[jdhogg]

"Waves Mercury" = madness

If you must, then buy the ren stUff you need and cherry pick the rest FROM OTHER MANUFACTURERS.

DO THE ROB CHIARELLI TRICK FIRST
then to compare what top end fx can do, demo the massey limiter and any good comp epure/dmg/vertigo
/softube and the DMG equality eq etc

Here is THE rob chiarelli post


Re: How do I that smooth-loudness in mastering
« Reply #14 on Jun 29, 2009, 2:04am »

Interesting thread... I see a lot of great suggestions here. Here is a secret:

On the mix buss, if you want some punch & level try this:

Set your mix buss compressor at 10-20ms attack and 100-300ms release. Allow 3-5 db of compression at about 4:1 ratio.
That will give the mix some pop. For Hip-Hop and R&B, the attack can be closer to 20ms. For Rock, closer to 10ms.

Then, set your limiter (10:1 Ratio) to 1ms attack and set the release at 1000ms (1 sec) release. Only allow 1 or 2 db of limiting.
This will give the mix that smoooooth sound that makes your ears say "yum" and will also get you some gain.

Then, follow that with another limiter (infinity:1 Ratio) set at 0.01ms attack and 10ms release. Only allow 1 db or limiting to mash out the peaks.
Your mix will smoke and the low end will sound natural and full.


Rock on...
Rob Chiarelli

[andygabrys]

"Waves Mercury" = madness

If you must, then buy the ren stUff you need and cherry pick the rest FROM OTHER MANUFACTURERS.

DO THE ROB CHIARELLI TRICK FIRST
then to compare what top end fx can do, demo the massey limiter and any good comp epure/dmg/vertigo
/softube and the DMG equality eq etc

Here is THE rob chiarelli post


Re: How do I that smooth-loudness in mastering
« Reply #14 on Jun 29, 2009, 2:04am »

Interesting thread... I see a lot of great suggestions here. Here is a secret:

On the mix buss, if you want some punch & level try this:

Set your mix buss compressor at 10-20ms attack and 100-300ms release. Allow 3-5 db of compression at about 4:1 ratio.
That will give the mix some pop. For Hip-Hop and R&B, the attack can be closer to 20ms. For Rock, closer to 10ms.

Then, set your limiter (10:1 Ratio) to 1ms attack and set the release at 1000ms (1 sec) release. Only allow 1 or 2 db of limiting.
This will give the mix that smoooooth sound that makes your ears say "yum" and will also get you some gain.

Then, follow that with another limiter (infinity:1 Ratio) set at 0.01ms attack and 10ms release. Only allow 1 db or limiting to mash out the peaks.
Your mix will smoke and the low end will sound natural and full.


Rock on...
Rob Chiarelli

what is the link to the original thread on this one? I would like to check it out. thanks for posting.

[jdhogg]

I cant find it - taxi search is poor.
I just pasted it from a reference.

From what I remember it was all simple newb stuff then rob c posted the above...... I dont think you are missing anything.

That was the gem on the thread.