Summing (D-Box by Dangerous)

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gtrmann
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Re: Summing (D-Box by Dangerous)

Post by gtrmann » Mon May 07, 2012 11:31 am

I am going to try and elaborate on the ideas made my Mojo and rnrmachine. I have done a ton of live sound, I am going to try and explain it how I see it....

The Audio frequency is 20Hz to 20Khz... You can't make all your instruments sound real big and full and get them to fit together without stepping on each other, or creating a build up at certain frequencies. The more instruments you have in a mix the smaller the frequency spectrum of each of the support items should be.... You need to find areas in the audio spectrum to poke 'em through, that way you can hear them cleanly, using the pan controls help here also. You could also try soloing your tracks and looking at them with a RTA to determine their fundemental frequencies...


Use subtractive EQ when ever possible
Try using you high pass filters on the low end of individual tracks, and the Low pass on the high end of individual tracks to cut the extreme lows and highs out of the tracks... do this while listening to the whole mix. This cleans out a lot of mud and excessive noise...

If something sounds muddy, before you add highs, try cutting lows, or lower mids.....
If something sounds thin, before adding lows, try cutting upper mids, or highs...

If you voice is too sibilant in your vocal mic, try singing a few degrees off axis... Most cardiod mics pickup highs in a narrow areas..... the lower the frequency the broader the pickup area, the higher the freq the narrower the area of pickup by your mic.. turning your mic a few degrees right or left can make a difference.... Listen through headphones and experiment with this ..helps with P-popping sometimes too..
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Re: Summing (D-Box by Dangerous)

Post by Len911 » Mon May 07, 2012 2:30 pm

I like telefunken. I have one.
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Re: Summing (D-Box by Dangerous)

Post by jmarkinman » Tue May 08, 2012 9:23 am

:D

jdhogg, THANKS for that repost. that is a gem.

So you guys were right, the majority of the problem was definitely a skill thing, however, not a mixing skill, but problems on the mastering end and the use of compressors/limiters/eqs there.

To illustrate, I've taken a mix from one of my more thought out arrangements and I have remastered it to use the specifications under Rob Chiarelli's advice. While not perfect, I'm excited to hear a real improvement in an area I was constantly hitting a plateau in. And I have you guys to thank :)

So, I have 4 versions of this track to share.


http://www.jmarkinman.com/music/COLD_MIX_BARE.mp3

This is the bare mix and the exact same mix used in "COLD_LIMIT_POP3MATCH.mp3". It only differs in the mix from the other tracks in 3 ways: I lessened the threshold on the vocal compressor, I added a deesser to the main vocal track and I changed the amp setting on the keyboard that plays the high sustained notes in the chorus section. Outside of this, everything else is the same including levels and EQ. This will give you a good idea as to how I mix in the box and that I am well aware of subtractive EQ and mixing basics.

http://www.jmarkinman.com/music/COLD_feb_2012.mp3

This is a master of this mix from february 2012. I was experimenting with putting the track through my preamp to get some warmth in the track. It worked really welll for that, but overall, I knew it sounded overcompressed and the chorus had no real "lift" to it and so I decided to try and fix those problems and redo the process over and this monstrosity was the result:

http://www.jmarkinman.com/music/COLD_feb_2012_2.mp3

And following is the newest version that I just completed. It sounds so much better than the other two attempts and much better than the original mix as well, and mainly uses the recommendations of Rob Chiarelli via jdhogg. I think that it is a WORLD apart from the other versions. I'm still open to suggestions on to how I could further make this track even better. In addition to the limiting/compression advice given by Rob, I have also included a match EQ at the pop3 setting in the chain and adjusted gain/levels accordingly. (all in logic pro)

http://www.jmarkinman.com/music/COLD_LI ... 3MATCH.mp3


Thanks to EVERYONE in this thread (gtrmann, mojo, rnr...) for your thoughts and ideas. I know I've been quiet in addressing each post individually, but there is a lot for me to take in!

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Re: Summing (D-Box by Dangerous)

Post by andygabrys » Tue May 08, 2012 10:44 am

I listened to the mixes you posted.

hey its subjective based on listening environment etc. - take a bag of salt with this, cause its just what I hear. but I hear the following:

the base mix - The right channel is louder than the left during most of the song. There are some really peaky points in the mix at 422 hz, 1266 hz, 2592 hz, and to a lesser degree 6984 hz. There seems to be a lot of sub in the track (inaudible to me below 20hz). The freq drops off really fast above 16 khz.

the mix is fairly dynamic, so it going to require something to give if you want a really loud master, you are going to be clipping some peaks, which I think is pretty much what I hear in the next comment.

The Feb masters, and the most recent master: they have been brickwalled heavily, they are pretty loud, there is hardly any dynamic range, and they are all distorted, pushed too far. The beat is distorted, which based on the base mix, isn't how you mixed it. The vocals have exacerbated sibilance, and there is a lot of energy in the 5khz to 16 khz range, which seems to be the distorted vocal and the hi-hat parts. The tonal balance of the mix has shifted quite a bit compared to your bare mix.

Its not right, not wrong - but based on the mix, I would end up with something like this:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9719334/Cold_Tr ... ter_01.mp3

If that isn't loud enough, or high endy enough, or exciting enough, I would reexamine the base mix. you can only do so much in "mastering".

If you are looking at having a really loud beat, I would mix in some parallel distortion before you get to mastering. I would filter out some highs on the beat as well to make room for the vocal.

The kick and the bass seem to be occupying similar space. I would sidechain a compressor on the bass synth to the kick, so that when the kick hits, the bass dips a few db, maybe 3-4. the idea being that you can fade up the bass part a little higher without masking the kick.

I would look at the vocal - it seems a little drab on the top end. I think the vocal could use that sparkle, naturally you will be balancing that against sibilance. you could automate the volume of the words or syllables that are sibilant down about 3-5 db. That may be more effective than a de-esser.

I would look at making some space in the verse for the vocal, but selectively cutting from that synth sample with the delay, its bright and more present than the vocal to my ear.

my 2 cents.

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Re: Summing (D-Box by Dangerous)

Post by andygabrys » Wed May 09, 2012 10:41 am

something else to be aware of.

those mp3s that you posted are hot enough that they will clip some AD convertors, like mine. So even if the master was okay, its just too hot and it sounds distorted. So it might have sounded cool as a WAV or maybe when you were mastering it, but the mp3 isn't happening. I can't tell whether it was just that you slammed the last master and its distorted, or if its some of that and the mp3 conversion

know what I mean?

when you bounce to mp3 or convert whatever way you do it, it will clip if you leave the output of your master limiter at out put of 0.0db, and even sometimes as far down as -0.5db or -0.7db. something to check out. Mojo bone schooled me on this.

Some mp3 convertors like the Sonnox Fraun..... (however you spell it) have a workflow that actually checks the level of the converted mp3 and then reduces the input volume of the track so that the mp3 isn't distorting by going over digital 0.0db during the conversion process. I don't own it, but I demoed it a while back when Sonnox was having a big sale. It was the first time I realized that i was doing some silly things when "mastering".

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Re: Summing (D-Box by Dangerous)

Post by rnrmachine » Wed May 09, 2012 1:12 pm

andygabrys wrote:something else to be aware of.

those mp3s that you posted are hot enough that they will clip some AD convertors, like mine. So even if the master was okay, its just too hot and it sounds distorted...
Seriously take this as constructive criticism PLEASE because it's only meant to be helpful. I, as well as everyone else, could just keep our mouths shut and safely avoid any confrontation... BUT you did post asking for help so I am TRYING to help. It's gonna take time, you won't get it over night. You wouldn't expect to win your first Daytona 500 would ya?.. especially IF that's the first time ya ever raced... other than some screwing around on back roads... same as messing with music gear in your basement.

I gave the MP3s a listen and I am gonna have to agree here and I'd like to add... that last one is TOO LOUD. I told you -10 RMS.. maybe I should have clarified.. the PEAK of the RMS should not exceed -10db. The (not the peak) is meaning ignore your peak reference when gauging perceived loudness. IF you can't get a forward, or a deal at -10db RMS then it's not your master... it's your music. SO trying to go louder... you're seriously wasting your time AND ruining your mix. You're tones just are not high quality enough to allow you to go that loud.

The mix you think sounds great is very harsh... you need to back things off. IF you want a good for instance... listen to the MESS of sounds at 2:48 - 2:49... it's not the first place that it happens but it's an obvious one. IF that was my song and you mixed it like that.. I would have to tell you I am sorry but I need to go elsewhere. IF you asked me why I am going somewhere else I would tell you... because it's apparent that you allow too many poorly controlled peaks into the mix and it is ruining your master...

MAYBE.. you can't hear it with your current setup OR maybe you just don't hear because you lack the listening skills that only develop over time.. I don't know without listening to it on your setup.. all I can do is try to help guide you... along with others.

In summation, you are doing too many wrong things, then going too loud... ask yourself these questions..?... I'll answer with my humble opinion on this one, but in the future you'll have to try to be your own worst critic.. it's hard, I know.

Is it a cool song? heck yea... I could definitely see it going somewhere in Film/TV
Does the mix compliment it? Currently... not really but it's hard to tell because...
Does the master sound like a pro did it? Not a chance... The master has the quality of... some kid driving Dad's Porsche and beating the piss out of it... for lack of a better analogy. Back off and learn to drive that gear you are using. That spot I mentioned 2:48... you hit the wall... now you're out of the race...

Good Luck in all ya do.

Oh yea.. and do what I said about taking clips of songs and listening too them one after the other... it really does help a person define a "balanced mix" in their head.

Also... IF your song has more treble than most others... you're not cool, you're off from a well balanced mix... same with the bass... I used to fall for that foolery myself. It only shows lack of knowledge, not oh wow.. his mix has more treble so it's way cooler... that's NOT how it works...
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Re: Summing (D-Box by Dangerous)

Post by jmarkinman » Sat May 12, 2012 11:56 am

Definitely listening and taking this advice. I'm very thankful. Slow to respond because this last week has been very busy for me! I definitely agree with the comments posted and I will work on my production skills some more.

I'll post some remasters later, either in this thread or in a new thread in the "technology, recording and production" or "peer to peer" boards, since it has become a bit off topic.

/jmark

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Re: Summing (D-Box by Dangerous)

Post by mojobone » Thu May 17, 2012 11:22 pm

A bit more on subtractive EQ, in addition to Bruce's excellent advice; here are a couple of charts you may find helpful in using EQ to fit the pieces of your mix together like a jigsaw puzzle. Learning to do this stuff is particularly important for those using loops, which have often been pre-treated, sometimes with tons of radical EQ and compression; that can make 'em tougher to mix.

Image

Here is a cool interactive chart for acoustic instrument ranges/frequencies: http://independentrecording.net/irn/res ... isplay.htm

The 2 charts above help to define the frequency ranges of different instruments and sounds. The first chart covers electronic sounds and the second covers acoustic sounds. Use them as guidelines when eq’ing your sounds but use your ears as the final judge. The second chart includes the Fletcher-Munson Curve that shows the ear’s sensitivity at different SPL’s (The ear’s response is more accurate around 85db SPL). Also notice on both charts how a lot of sounds overlap and how broad the range of some of their fundamentals and harmonics (The Kick covers from 50Hz to 8Khz). Take note of the terminology used on the charts to describe the different frequency ranges.

When eq’ing try and find the fundamental frequency of each sound and boost and cut as needed. If you have 2 sounds that occupy the same space frequency-wise try to cut certain frequencies on one sound and boost the same on the other sound then adjust your levels to taste. Try not to boost the same frequencies on multiple sounds as this can lead to the mix sounding harsh or muddy.

*Above, courtesy the gary noble show, for more details: http://thegarynobleshow.tumblr.com/post ... _113833275

A little theory might help; see, a fundamental is the basic pitch of a given note, but there are also harmonic partials that relate mathematically to the fundamental pitch. A sine wave doesn't have a lot of harmonics, it's mostly just the fundamental; triangle, saw and square waves have progressively more harmonics. Acoustic instruments are similarly built; a single note has upper partials in the same way a Hammond organ's drawbars work, so you can emphasize or better yet, de-emphasize the fundamental or the different harmonics when sweeping a parametric EQ. The key is in knowing the range of the fundamental notes of each instrument and choosing carefully which harmonic partials are necessary for each instrument or loop to be heard clearly within the context of your mix. If you ruthlessly cut anything you don't need, each instrument can have its own space, and your mix will be far more intelligible, with less mud and frequency buildup.
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