Taxi is close to worthless for singer/songwriters

[2lane]

rofl! ott! But I think jerry is busy with his new luggage show, sounds like you might be free, you'd make a great host, no telling where this might all lead,lol, or you could read/sing us your lyrics where the first two VERSES rhyme, I didn't know that existed,lol! Is it every line in the first two verses, how many lines are in the verses btw?
I'm a smart @ss I know, but I've yet to be called a dumb @ss, and isn't that really what counts?lol!!! Image is everything, or so I've been told.

Yeah, good idea Len!
Ottlukk OttLukk Ottlukk Ottlukk

[wta]

Gee, I wonder if when Johnny Cash sat down to write, he broke out the songwriter rulebook first.....hmmmmm?

Nope... Him and Chuck Noris wrote it!

[Ajetpackoperation]

Regarding the whole rules thing (I had never heard of the first two lines rhyming = no no rule either), an actual artist can make anything work. Give an artist some clanking industrial machinery, some air horns, a theremin, an toy piano, and an ancient Chinese poem as a text and they can make that into a hit - or maybe not. An artist really doesn't care.

There are many great craftsmen and great practitioners of music, but there just aren't many artists out there.

[rnrmachine]

Regarding the whole rules thing (I had never heard of the first two lines rhyming = no no rule either), an actual artist can make anything work. Give an artist some clanking industrial machinery, some air horns, a theremin, an toy piano, and an ancient Chinese poem as a text and they can make that into a hit - or maybe not. An artist really doesn't care.

There are many great craftsmen and great practitioners of music, but there just aren't many artists out there.

There are a ton of artists, I have met many and wish to meet many many more. Now you guys are getting brought down by this thread as if I am saying all music must be done a certain way.. I am NOT saying that... so I am going to say this.

Sure, if you are only out to please yourself, there are no rules. IF you want to follow your own rules that is fine.. start your own trend, build a new genre.. go for it.. break the rules, but if you think you are going to do this from a home studio, or your bedroom. Then you are fooling yourself. You are going to need a band, build a LARGE following and prove to people that this CAN be a new trend. Convince people that this new "grunge" or "alternative" sound is here to sweep the nation. Granted there is the internet option now, but you have to figure out how to build a following that way short of dropping a lot of coin into a marketers hand to do it for you. Or have someone front the money... but you better be convincing.

IF you are trying to make "radio hits" which equate to singles... if you truly study this phenomena (ie the History of Hit Songs and Trends) you will see that there are guidelines that work etc.. and IF you went to school for it, some would call it "rules" although a better word, or way to put it would be "standards". Hit songs have standards (anyone recognize this word or am I one of the few that would anymore?) and any book or songwriting class will tell you this... Also, rhyming the first 2 THEN the 2nd 2 lines is Anti-standard. Many will tell you this is what amateurs/beginners will do. Also in that Songwriting 101 they will mention a bunch more things that beginners/amateurs will do.

Don't take my word for it.. go take a class, by some books. I happen to think 2112 from rush is one of the greatest song jams of all time.. I only once ever heard it on the radio and that was advertised as a special event so I knew it was coming in advance. There is song structure but built in a symphonic overature style, not in a hit song style.. AND the lyrics show talent, have a storyline easy to follow. Even following a style that song only got radio play once that I ever heard of, because of the artists popularity, so this becomes a perfect example of anyone teaching.. songwriting 101. If you build a following, by playing out etc... you can get away with a lot more, you can break some rules. Smells like Teen spirit was a rule breaker but that band was also popular long before they "made it" because they built a strong following. I played live for years and had a good following, well the band did, and I learned a lot watching what people liked and didn't like. Covers and originals so I do understand when people are drinking they would rather yell, Louie Louie, or Wild Thing 50 times in a row then sing anything that make sense. Or even "hello" 9 times in a row. When you are submitting to A&R style listings they are not drunk, they are listening intently.

If you write a song that follows hit songwriting structure (why even follow that then??? if there are no rules..?), then claim you can do whatever you want when writing lyrics, you are only fooling yourself. BUT then try and submit to a "radio hit" listing... as if you are following the "standard", ie rules of hit songwriting???

This guy even said he outsourced the song... session muscians played it for him. Artist? where? Did John Lennon just walk into the room playing Imagine? <---- that is a HIT song writer/artist. Not hard to recognize.

Don't sit here and claim to me you are no sell out while trying to sell out... in other words.. you don't follow rules but yet you are trying to sell your song to someone who wants "mass market" ready songs = radio hit = singles = standards = follows a standard... I can't spell it out any plainer then this. But I keep getting people talking in circles to me not showing any true knowledge of the music industry.

ALL I WANTED TO DO WAS HELP... apparently it is not wanted.. so I am done with this thread. It has taken the wind out of my sails and brought me down. Arguing, discussing things is one thing, I can enjoy that, but bullhdeaded stubburness is a totally different thing.

Rob

[rnrmachine]

rofl! ott! But I think jerry is busy with his new luggage show, sounds like you might be free, you'd make a great host, no telling where this might all lead,lol, or you could read/sing us your lyrics where the first two VERSES rhyme, I didn't know that existed,lol! Is it every line in the first two verses, how many lines are in the verses btw?
I'm a smart @ss I know, but I've yet to be called a dumb @ss, and isn't that really what counts?lol!!! Image is everything, or so I've been told.

Len I am only saying anything more to your post, because it is your psot, this all is not aimed at you though, just the obvious is.

I said first two lines then 2nd 2 lines.. not verses.. read properly please.

Also, anyone can pull out exceptions to anything... here ya go.. I got one...

Usually a bullet wound to the head is fatal, but I know of a few cases where the persona actually lived.... wanna take a gamble you will live??

Rob

EDIT: I wanted to put in here.. bullet to the head comment is NOT A THREAT.. so don't no whiny crybaby start claiming I am threatning anyone.. it is ONLY AN EXAMPLE of the stupidity that is now starting to get thrown around here. Also, J Cash is yet another example of EARLY songwriting, genre specific AND he had a HUGE following. He wasn't writing for OTHER PEOPLE. Have you learned to play his songs? I did when I was 12 just because I wanted to know how to play like that. Do I now? NO, but if I need to I can.

I wanted to ad in as well, I am NOT claiming that I follow the rules, standards... but I am not trying to pitch my songs to artists as if they are "radio hits" either. I have MANY songs that flow to the beat of MY HEART!! Not giving a CRAP what anyone thinks about these songs but me. I don't care what people think about them soo much that I will NEVER post them online, play them for anyone or try to be a sell out with them. I do what makes me happy.. where ever that takes me. And right now that is, raising a 15 year old girl making music in my humble home studio while trying to help people best I can... while coping with missing the one woman in life I truly loved.

[Ajetpackoperation]

Sure, if you are only out to please yourself, there are no rules. IF you want to follow your own rules that is fine.. start your own trend, build a new genre.. go for it.. break the rules, but if you think you are going to do this from a home studio, or your bedroom. Then you are fooling yourself. You are going to need a band, build a LARGE following and prove to people that this CAN be a new trend. Convince people that this new "grunge" or "alternative" sound is here to sweep the nation. Granted there is the internet option now, but you have to figure out how to build a following that way short of dropping a lot of coin into a marketers hand to do it for you. Or have someone front the money... but you better be convincing.Rob

I'm talking about artists pushing the envelope and working to take their music to the farthest reaches of its creative conclusion, rebuilding and metamorphosing in to something completely different - hits, critic and fan expectations be dammed. And that to me is the definition of an artist, not giving a F@#K. Dilla - from his home studio - changed the face and sound of hip hop (and eventually rock and pop music) from a fundamental level upward, which led other influential artists like Flying Lotus and Madlib. The most cutting edge rock bands on the face of the earth right now are Deerhoof and Dirty projectors. Gregg (who's greatly influenced by ?uestlove) and Satomi keep mixing it up and taking listeners by suprise. In the jazz world we've got people like Rudresh Mahanthapa and Steven Lehman, who after studing with the biggest figures in the French spectral harmony school (Grissey and Murail), put together a jazz album that - to everyones surprise - was able to use the microtonal harmonies of that school as a vehicle for jazz composition and improvisation. I'd talk about David Sylvian's move into Electroacoustic Improvisation (EAI) but that would take to much time. What's important is that he's more of an artist than most people who've topped charts.

I say all this as a music fan first and foremost (check it: http://rateyourmusic.com/~Cliftonb). As a listener I don't care about rules and wether any may or may have not been broken. I'm just looking for something to keep me interested. New styles and genres are happening faster that people can come up with names for them. I hope this continues.

IF you are trying to make "radio hits" which equate to singles... if you truly study this phenomena (ie the History of Hit Songs and Trends) you will see that there are guidelines that work etc.. and IF you went to school for it, some would call it "rules" although a better word, or way to put it would be "standards". Hit songs have standards (anyone recognize this word or am I one of the few that would anymore?) and any book or songwriting class will tell you this... Also, rhyming the first 2 THEN the 2nd 2 lines is Anti-standard. Many will tell you this is what amateurs/beginners will do. Also in that Songwriting 101 they will mention a bunch more things that beginners/amateurs will do.Rob

I agree, radio hits share many characteristics. But there have been many exceptions to this rule throughout history. But I've got to ask, if writing hit songs is as easy as applying a magic formula, how come everybody is cashing in on this thing?

Don't take my word for it.. go take a class, by some books. I happen to think 2112 from rush is one of the greatest song jams of all time.. I only once ever heard it on the radio and that was advertised as a special event so I knew it was coming in advance. There is song structure but built in a symphonic overature style, not in a hit song style.. AND the lyrics show talent, have a storyline easy to follow. Even following a style that song only got radio play once that I ever heard of, because of the artists popularity, so this becomes a perfect example of anyone teaching.. songwriting 101. If you build a following, by playing out etc... you can get away with a lot more, you can break some rules. Smells like Teen spirit was a rule breaker but that band was also popular long before they "made it" because they built a strong following. I played live for years and had a good following, well the band did, and I learned a lot watching what people liked and didn't like. Covers and originals so I do understand when people are drinking they would rather yell, Louie Louie, or Wild Thing 50 times in a row then sing anything that make sense. Or even "hello" 9 times in a row. When you are submitting to A&R style listings they are not drunk, they are listening intently."Rob

"Smells Like Teen Spirit" was a hit. What rules it broke, I'm not sure. But I do know that in my opinion it was a terrible song.

[fusilierb]

Don't take my word for it.. go take a class, by some books. I happen to think 2112 from rush is one of the greatest song jams of all time..

Good lord, I made the mistake of starting this song and then reading the thread while listening. What a bummer, I enjoyed the song, the thread was a total downer. Since I invested so much time in it, I'm trying to find somethin positive to say. Soo...

I saw my second Rush show about 10 years ago in LA. Hour and a half first set, then 20 minute break, then the entire 2112 album from start to finish. I think we can agree on this for sure!

So what is the real big deal here? You're song is really, really good. It's professionally recorded, well performed and well written. So it didn't get submitted to a listing. Have you read the story's around here on how long forwards "sometimes" take to turn into deals? And then once deals, how long they take to turn into money?

Slow down. You're more than past the curve. Go pitch this where ever you can. Taxi is just one of the places to pitch. There is no magic bullet. Keep pitching. And for a Christian, what's with all the bashing?

B

[DorothyWallace]

This song has been #1 for a gazillion weeks.. (at least it seems that way) Note the rhymes!!

"Need You Now"

Picture perfect memories scattered all around the floor.
Reaching for the phone 'cuz I can't fight it anymore.
And I wonder if I ever cross your mind?
For me it happens all the time.


I couldn't resist!!

Dorothy

[Len911]

Rob, I was ribbing Ott about his post, I knew what he meant, I was just making a funny.

I'm not quite sure who makes the rules, I think the artist was first, then came songwriting books to analyze their songs and make rules about songwriting from them, then as artists broke the rules, songwriting books went back and rewrote a few chapters and issued a revised version. Speaking about Johnny Cash, wasn't he the artist that wanted to record an album in folsom prison, and all the record execs and A&R types were against it, and it turned his career around? I think the world is seeking vision, more so than revision. Just my observation.

[kvnlnt]

Rob, I can see you're still all pissed off at me. And since there is a resounding echo in everybody's post that I'm some jerk, we've even got new comers to the thread chiming in with comments about my jerkiness. Everybody, this is called a Meme. Look it up.

In reference to your "defense" of the "rules" you speak of. No defense need be made, I 100% agree with you. There are standards that have proven themselves to work. But I would explain it just a little bit differently. In reality what makes a song work or not work is the ability for the listener to connect with it. These "rules" are more like "design patterns" that work. There are also "design patterns" that are hard to make work. I actually have taken the ghost song approach with many of my songs...like building my own house by studying the structure of another that I like. This is why I get such a giggle out of feedback like this...because I have taken the so called "standard" road to my writing and I feel like it's been a compromise. So when I compromise and still get the feedback that I'm somehow going off road...it gets under my skin and makes me feel like people aren't really listening and are shooting from the hip with their feedback and in this post it's seems people are just feeding off each other...reinforcing this perception that I'm a whiny baby.

Also, I know I hurt your feelings thus you're still taking shots at me by saying things like I'm not an Artist and that I don't play my own instrumentation etc...not true. I only made the point because somebody said I should have had this song professionally produced. When I say one thing, another pushes me the other way and attacks me from the other direction. Go figure. If you can't see that I'm being ganged up on here, then you aren't being fair or helpful. Since I've already set the standard for "explaining myself" Here's an example of a demo I just recorded last week...it's 100% me on everything: http://www.scarletworm.com. Check it out. No "real" mixing involved...all raw, no autotune, nothing...just dry recording and a bit of panning.

Finally, you busted out a reference to having lost your true love. I truly am sorry to hear about your loss...