Theory on melody and lyrics

[stephen1977]

I can only speak for me personally, but I have never one time wrote the lyrics AFTER writing the music. I have many reasons for attacking songs this way, but I ALWAYS write the lyrics first. Then and only then, do I even consider putting music around them. I find it much easier to start with the words then write around them as opposed to writing the music first and TRYING to write something that fits.You see when you write the music first, you have already limited yourself a great deal on the lyrical front. You now have to sacrifice certain phrases and certain words to make it fit. This to me, creates quite the challenge and in most cases leaves your lyrics shy of their full potential. This may be why you believe what you do. If you are writing the melody first.. ..of course you are quite limited and in your eyes only certain things will fit. But, if you start with the lyrics, full focus is on the content and you end up with some really well thought out word, stories, poems, etc.I guess what I am saying is there are no restrictions when you write the lyrics first. Like I said, it may just be me, but I have never written them after the fact, nor will I ever. I have attempted it, but I always find I am having to squeeze things in, or cut things out, and for me, that just won't do. Content first. Then the music.I also find that the lyrics themselves give all kinds of inspiration for the coming music to be written. After the lyrics are written, I come up with a vocal melody, then from there I start adding guitar, and so on and so forth until its done.I don't believe there are one perfect set of lyrics for a given song. I believe there are hundreds, if not thousands of excellent variations for a song. It all depends on each individual writer's perspective. A melody may be a "found thing" to some, but for most, its not. I know Music Theory, and I could sit here and write out melodies all day long without touching an instrument. That is not finding anything. That is having a vast knowledge of your craft. Sure, I have stumbled upon cool melodies just jamming around, who hasn't, but for the most part it just doesn't work that way. Its a science.Again, like others have mention, it depends on what medium you are writing as well. Deadlines, pleasure, etc. One might say the perfect lyrics are the ones that led to a song selling the most. One might say the perfect lyrics are the ones quoted the most. This is just another topic dabbling in the realm of the subjective. But there is no one set of words that is perfect for any given melody. To think like that is really cutting yourself short. IMHO

[sgs4u]

Sept 23, 2008, 9:43am, stephen1977 wrote:I can only speak for me personally, You see when you write the music first, you have already limited yourself a great deal on the lyrical front. Your way is fine for you. I usually start with lyrics too. However I can easily see one limitation that approach creates...It prevents the lyric from adapting to the sound of the music. There are a lot of writers who like to start with a guitar lick, or a drum groove, because it works better for them. Some writers like to try different things all the time, to keep their approaches and mind fresh, and able to adapt to whatever a co-writer brings to the table. Chicken or Egg?

[stephen1977]

Sept 23, 2008, 9:56am, sgs4u wrote:Sept 23, 2008, 9:43am, stephen1977 wrote:I can only speak for me personally, You see when you write the music first, you have already limited yourself a great deal on the lyrical front. Your way is fine for you. I usually start with lyrics too. However I can easily see one limitation that approach creates...It prevents the lyric from adapting to the sound of the music. There are a lot of writers who like to start with a guitar lick, or a drum groove, because it works better for them. Some writers like to try different things all the time, to keep their approaches and mind fresh, and able to adapt to whatever a co-writer brings to the table. Chicken or Egg?I agree with your POV and I apologize if I was coming across like its this way or the highway. But I never run into a problem with the lyrics adapting to the sound of the music because I make the music adapt to the sound of the lyrics.You are right my friend. We all have our own styles that work for us. There will never be a definitive way of writing music, we can only do what works well for each of us.Again, I apologize if I came across overzealous in the above post.

[hummingbird]

I often write lyrics first. And when I write lyrics first I usually write a verse and then a chorus.However, there are other times when I start with a title, and then write a verse and a chorus.And there are other times I write the chorus first.And there are other times that I write the music first and then write the words to fit the music. I have also written lyrics to other people's already written music - that's a challenge.My point being, there is no right way or wrong way to do it. It's the end result that counts. Rewrite, craft, rework, until the words & music come together well.I have heard - and I think it's true - that we tend to be more willing to rewrite words than rewrite melody. ... and... as a singer I look at lyrics not only in terms of their story or imagery or emotive value... but in terms of their singability - as a performer I want to have opportunity to express and to phrase the words so that they flow. IMO a percentage of lyricists, who do not sing, fall down in this area. ... and... as a singer I want to rise on the chorus or the hook and get into that part of my range that has impact... I want a melody that is written to support the human voice in its expressionism, that gives me room to breathe and to phrase and to bring passion to the words. IMO a percentage of music composers, who do not sing, fall down in this area.

[flood]

I have only written lyrics prior to a melody once.I still have those lyrics and have been trying to puzzle out a melody for weeks.It's possible we have stumbled onto a very important difference in methods. Not to say that any method is better than any other. As Vikki says, the results are what counts.It is fascinating, though, to see people adamantly sticking with their "lyrics first" or "melody first" methods.It would be interesting to hear some thoughts on why they work in that fashion, from a more nuts and bolts perspective. What is the process you go through, both mentally, on paper, and in the computer?For me, I derive words to the melody and music only after it is complete. Complete in my head, usually, there is much more work to getting it recorded properly.I use the melody to suggest the mood or atmosphere, which usually evokes a feeling for me or an emotion. From that I brainstorm specific words and write them in my notebook. These words usually end up meaning something, or seeming to, and that suggests a story or theme.From there, I fiddle with the words and rhythm of individual syllables until they begin to flow into the melody.I have never fitted a melody to words. I work the reverse, and fit the words and syllables to melody. I almost never concern myself with rhyme.However, I have also not sold millions of records or downloads. It is simply my method. Whether it works for commercial success, who can tell.Mostly my popular music is a source of entertainment for myself. If one ever charts or is used by a big name star, I will be very pleased of course, but it is mostly for my own pleasure.I am interested in hearing others methods, if any wouldbe so kind.This has turned into a compelling and fun discussion!

[stephen]

Will Jump in later, kinda busy. Good thread thus far...

[mojobone]

At Rancho Mojo, the song gets done any way it can, same as makin' babies. I'm one of those ADD people that are paradoxically easily entertained and easily distracted/bored, I develop a process, abandon it, develop a new one, hybridize the two, amalgamate both the former with a third, whatever.I don't feel that melodies limit lyrics, nor vice versa, for me, the trick is coaxing them into working together to achieve a desired emotional response. Or any emotional response, really. .

[aubreyz]

Hmmm... very interesting discussion. I don't think there is a right and wrong answer -- just differences in approach. Last night at my kid's high school choir concert they sang Aura Lee -- the song that the melody for Love Me Tender was taken from. It struck me, hearing the original again, how the Love Me Tender lyrics demanded different meter and placement of some of the melody.My process varies, because I find it hard to separate melody from lyric. If I write lyrics first, i usually hear at least some melody or lyric first.... but then I find that lyric may evolve and develop around the final melody. If the music is there first, then I find the melody is influenced and evolves around the lyric, like the Elvis example above.So for my process, right or wrong, the lyric and or melody are not independent of each other. A fixed lyric can limit a melody as well as visa versa. Both have to evolve together to be a song.IMHO that's why many collaborations do not click when there's a lyricist and a composer. The two have to be willing to give ground to become a complete whole.... though the same can happen when there's only one writer. Aub

[sgs4u]

Sept 23, 2008, 5:41pm, flood wrote:It is fascinating, though, to see people adamantly sticking with their "lyrics first" or "melody first" methods. Flood, you need to re-read this entire thread you've started, if you think people are sticking with their lyric or melody first methods. Every poster on here says they change it up once in a while, except for one. There was only one guy, who said he always does it lyrics first. Everyone else likes changes... No one else was "adamant" unless you count those willing to change... That's something I noticed right away. but it's all good man. the thread is a wealth of knowledge. thanks for starting it.

[flood]

Perhaps adamant was the wrong word. It seems people have their "go to" method, and it works for them in many cases. That is what I meant, I suppose, though I should refrain from reading and writing immediately before bedtime. It is refreshing to see this from so many different angles.