When are loops "royalty free"?

[ragani]

Nov 28, 2009, 6:25am, thesongcabinet wrote:Hi Raags,Thanks for sharing that experience with Big Fish! Very insightful and inspiring (just like your wonderful music!).Thank you! Nov 28, 2009, 4:08am, len123 wrote:Loops are "royalty free" when you purchase and register them legally, and do not resell them or use them in a matter which competes with the company producing them. When a consumer purchases a loop, and has conformed to those requirements, they can use them however they so choose. When Fender sells you a guitar, they can't charge you royalties on the sound, though they could if you replicated their guitar. It's confusing because loops are a software product, though they are sold for the express purpose of using as one would an instrument, that is their whole premise, and that is what they are sold as, otherwise they are useless.Hi len123,Unfortunately what you said here is not always true. For every company, the rules are different with loops. For many, you are not allowed to use them "as you choose" (Mazz gives a good post on this just above). Indeed Fender sells you a guitar to play what you want, but if you play a piece, make a loop, what you have played now becomes a fixed format, and different places have different rules about what you can do with those loops if you purchase them. Perhaps you are thinking of software virtual instruments (i.e. East West violins, etc.)-- those are free to be used and played as you wish (though even some sounds from places like Spectrasonics require you to not just play them as a single note in some cases). If you're submitting for commercial music or sales, be careful here. It's on you if you license your tracks and the licensee finds out that you've violated the terms of use agreement with a company that produced your loops.I'm no expert, no lawyer, just a musician with 2 cents less now.Raags

[mazz]

Nov 28, 2009, 4:08am, len123 wrote:Loops are "royalty free" when you purchase and register them legally, and do not resell them or use them in a matter which competes with the company producing them. When a consumer purchases a loop, and has conformed to those requirements, they can use them however they so choose. When Fender sells you a guitar, they can't charge you royalties on the sound, though they could if you replicated their guitar. It's confusing because loops are a software product, though they are sold for the express purpose of using as one would an instrument, that is their whole premise, and that is what they are sold as, otherwise they are useless.When you buy a loop, you're buying a "license" to use it, you're not buying the loop itself. A loop is not an instrument. If the company you buy the loop from gives you totally free rein on the usage, then it's like that Fender guitar you refer to. But not all companies are the same with their licenses, so you have to read the fine print. Your blanket statement above could get you into trouble if you just go forward with that approach.As Raags said, a sample of an instrument or section, like the First Violins in an orchestra library probably only has the limitation of not being able to repackage the library and sell it as your own intellectual property, otherwise, it's pretty much like a Fender guitar.Again: Loops and sampled instruments are two different things. Read the fine print or live dangerously. I implore you to read the fine print and act accordingly. What you do affects everyone that uses loops and we don't need more restrictive licenses because of a reckless few.Thanks,Mazz

[len123]

Hello Raags and Mazz, I am not an attorney and am sure my blanket statement has many "loopholes",lol!!! Maybe I just haven't imagined the extent beyond using a loop as an instrument or repackaging and reselling it. My understanding is that a loop is the basis for a sample. There seems to be even different contexts of the term Music Library, commercial library that supports industries, free music libraries, or sample based music libraries, or maybe they are all the same and I just don't get it,lol!!! Ok, I concede I am definitely over my head on this one,hehe!!

[mazz]

I think you're mixing up different types of libraries. For the sake of our discussion, I'll break it down into two broad categories:1. Production Music LibrariesThese libraries are repositories of full pieces of music composed by people like us. The music is made available to media producers of all types from network and cable TV to film and even corporate training productions, exercise videos, etc., etc., etc. There may or may not be upfront "sync" fees paid for the music but depending on the usage, the writer may see "backend" performance royalties paid by their PRO (ASCAP, BMI, etc.)2. Sample and Instrument LibrariesThese are libraries of either instrument samples, loops, virtual synthesizers, and sometimes all three rolled into one. These libraries are used by composers like us to compose music for the libraries mentioned in #1 above (and by other writers that supply music to labels, live performance, etc.).Where the terminology gets fuzzy is in the definition of the word "sample".In the broadest sense, a sample is a piece of audio that has been recorded and is available to be played back as a component of a larger piece of music. A sample library will generate their own samples by recording their own audio and formatting it to be played back in any number of ways. THis could include general formats like WAV files or it could be encoded to work in a specific "sampler" software such as Kontakt or it could even be used in hardware instruments like the Roland V-Synth, which will accept audio files from other sources to be used in it's internal memory. For instrument samples (trumpets, violins, rhodes pianos, etc.), there are generally no restrictions on the use of the material in any way because it's up to the composer to use the sounds to create their own music.A sample library, as I mentioned, could include loops, which again, are generated by the company that is releasing the sample library. This is where the lines start to get blurry. A loop on it's own could be considered a piece of music, and in fact, some sample library producers take this approach to a greater or lesser degree. For instance, some allow unrestricted usage of the loop as long as it's combined with two or more musical elements and is never isolated for a certain amount of time. A "construction kit", is basically a musical track produced by a sample library company and is then "broken out" to it's component parts, but when all the components are played back together you will hear the complete track. These are so a writer can mix and match different components or use the track as a backing track for a song, etc. These types of samples have pretty restrictive usage requirements for what I think are obvious reasons, but apparently there are folks out there that will try to pass these off as their own piece of music so that's why the restrictions are there. Big Fish sells a lot of these and their license, as quoted above, doesn't let you use these things in production music libraries. All of these types of sample libraries generally forbid usage of their samples or loops in a sample library offered for sale to the public. If you are thinking of creating a sample library, you'll have to make your own samples, which I would think you would want to anyway.3. Finally, there's what is referred to as "sampling", which has been used a lot in hip hop music, where someone will take a few bars of a well known piece of music and loop it to create the bed track for their piece. This type of sampling has the most legal ramifications of them all because of the origin of the sample. As you probably have seen over the years, this has generated a lot of legal issues and usually only really well known and rich artists can afford to license the original music so as to use it in their productions. As you might imagine, an artist who is approached for permission to use a sample by a famous hip hop act will smell royalties and perhaps more exposure and will want a nice fat fee for usage of their 2 or 4 bar snippet. If a "little guy" incorporates a "sample" without permission and the song blows up, you can be sure that a small army of lawyers will be showing up at their door.So the terms "sample" and "sampling" are used differently depending on context (don't you love the English language? ). Usually it either refers to sample libraries or a sample of a copyrighted piece of music.I hope this helps clear things up.Moral of the story, learn the business, read the fine print. Ask questions, don't assume. Pretend you're already successful, what would you do then to protect your business?Cheers!!Mazz

[mojobone]

Most samples are looped-this alone does not make them loops; when we speak of loops, it's shorthand for looped phrases. (or patterns, in the case of percussion loops) Instrument samples are made from looped notes. I hope that clears up all confusion.

[Kolstad]

These things are NOT simple, so it's crucial to read the licence agreements carefully.

I recently got a sample library I planned using for library tracks, but when I unpacked it, the licence agreement states the I can't use it for this. Bummer! It's my responsability, but the licence agreement was not public to read for this particular product before I got it, so I had no way of knowing.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't like to have these restrictions on my tools, mostly because Im afraid to forget about it when Im working. Now, I can't return it because it was a download, and I can resell it due to the licence agreement. 100$ down the drain.

Here's the licence agreement I'm frustrated about (I've anonymized the company because of this):

The samples contained herein are licensed, not sold to you, the individual end user,
by XXXXXXXXX. This non-exclusive, non-transferable license is granted only to the
individual end user who has purchased an unopened, new and lawfully made copy
of this product from a dealer or distributor authorized by XXXXXXX. All samples
remain the property of XXXXXXXXX and are licensed only for use in the creation
of a live or recorded performance that includes the licensed samples as part of a
derivative musical work created by the licensed end user. This license expressly
forbids resale, rental, loan, gift or transfer of these samples in any format or via any
medium, except as part of a derivative musical work. The samples may not be
included, whether unmodified or as part of a derivative work, in any music library or
sample library product. Any unlicensed usage will be prosecuted to the maximum
extent possible under the law.

Now, I'll have to get another go-to library I find more useful, with less restrictions. Of course these are also more expensive. That's the logic of it, I guess. Like this from East West's STORMDRUM, which seems less restrictive to me, allthough not overly simple (I didn't anonymize this, as this agreement is publicly available here: http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cac ... r8I1Zt8ZeA):

EASTWEST END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT: Please read the terms of the following
audio samples and MIDI files License Agreement before using these audio samples or
MIDI files. By opening the packaging and installing these audio samples or MIDI files,
you agree to become bound by the terms of the License Agreement. If you do not agree
with the terms of the License Agreement, do not open the packaging or use these audio
samples or MIDI files. East West Sounds, Inc. (“Licensor”) guarantees that all of the
samples and MIDI files with these discs have been created and recorded specially for
this project, and any similarity to any other recording is unintentional. 1. The audio
samples and MIDI files recorded with these discs remain the property of Licensor and are
licensed, not sold, to you for use with your sampling software or equipment. 2. A right to
use the enclosed sounds and MIDI files is granted to the original end-user of the product
(Licensee) and is NOT transferable. 3. The Licensee may modify the sounds or MIDI files.
LICENSEE MAY USE THE SOUNDS AND MIDI FILES FOR COMMERCIAL PURPOSES
WITHIN MUSICAL COMPOSITIONS. 4. The following terms apply to the use of the in-
cluded MIDI Performances (MIDI files) used in ‘music or production libraries’ that are
relicensed to multiple third parties. (1) Loops (compositions that contain a combination
of sound samples triggered by the included midi files) must be used in a musical context
together with at least two other instruments that contribute significantly to the composi-
tion. (2) The entire loop cannot be left exposed at any time in the composition. (3) If
you have any doubts a composition meets this criteria, you may submit it to licensing@
eastwestsounds.com for written approval. Please do not send audio or MP3 files, send a
link to your composition on your web server. 5. This license expressly forbids resale, re-
licensing or other distribution of these sounds or MIDI files, either as they exist on these
discs, or any modification thereof. You cannot sell, loan, rent, lease, assign, upload to or
download from any server, or transfer all or any of the enclosed sounds or MIDI files to
another user, or for use in any competitive product. 6. Licensor will not be responsible
if the contents of these discs does not fit the particular purpose of the Licensee. If in
doubt over usage, please contact East West Sounds, Inc. by fax: (USA) 323-957-6966
or email: licensing@eastwestsounds.com. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ©2007 EAST WEST
SOUNDS...

I often use a loop to get started. Then I arrange sequences and layers of loops, and finally edit the loops to suit my track. But still you have to be VERY careful not to have an all drumloop breakdown or sequence in your track (if this is just the loops). The 'no uncleared samples' requirement in Taxi listings, CAN be an issue with this, if you're not careful, it looks to me.

I must say Im frustrated by these things. The copyright laws only protect original melodies and lyrics, and yet these agreements defines a drum loop as a 'composition'. You even risk having a software company as an evaluator of your work, interfering in your creative freedom. This seems too restricted to me, as pro-musicians does 'work for hire' all the time, EVEN with copyrightable stuff! Why can't these companies?

This really frustrates me! I guess I need to stop using loops, and build things from scratch. But EVEN if I did this, I can use the samples from the library I just got, according to the licence agreement, if I want to submit it for library licensing that is..

Pheew! I guess it's a rookie rant, sorry about that.. But I wonder how you deal with these issues? I feel like a dinosaur relying on loops, and can't believe you guys build everything from scratch and still manages to finish a track off, sometimes more, in a day?

[mojobone]

Tried Ableton Live, yet? It makes creating your own loops ridiculously easy. Come up with a kick/snare pattern, copypaste it out to a few dozen bars, jam along using a bass sound, 'til you come up with something interesting, loop that, delete the rest and build from there. If you need a loop from a restricted library , there's really nothing stopping you from cloning it using similar sounds from your other instruments, so long as you don't use the original sample itself. The people who sold you the loops (okay, licensed) would probably prefer to keep your business; as Raags mentioned above, a phone call or email to the company can often clear these things up.