When is a song "great"?

[Pinkstar]

[/quote]This is a good point. I've also found that I will judge my music either while I'm writing it or right after I've finished it in tandem with my state of mind at that time. A day or two (possibly a week or two or even a year later), I'll view it differently, when I'm in a different place.Sometimes "great" is a matter of timing as well as subjective opinion.[/quote]I try not to think or judge when I'm writing the song, it never works for me. As soon as the mind enters, the creative valve isn't completely open. A great thing to do is record the vocals immediatly because you're in that "frame of mind" and sometimes it's hard to capture that same emotion again. I've done it a few times where I wanted to redo it but the vocal just didn't have the same feeling it had the first time around.

[matto]

I think you're comparing apples to oranges to pears. The word "great" can mean different things depending on context.In the context of a Taxi listing, "great" means "perfect for this opportunity".In the context of hit radio, "great" means "will sell a ton of records".In the context of artistic merit, "great" means "a piece of art that will stand the test of time".I think you would find a "great" deal of consensus about what is great within each of the above contexts, especially among connaisseurs/experts, but you will find little consensus when you get them all mixed up, for obvious reasons.Also, you're not clear about whether you're talking about the average person's definition of great or that of a connaisseur/expert. Obviously there could be a very big discrepancy between the two. I would expect to see a significant consensus of what great is among conaisseurs of fine art, or song, or classical music. With average people, "taste" would be a much more important factor I think.matto

[matto]

Quote:Even during the A&R Panel, they disagreed a lot. It makes perfect sense, we all have different opinions and taste but a great song is a song everyone likes even if they can't stand it. I didn't attend most of this year's A&R panels, but in the past, the few times they picked a really great song there was pretty much unanimous agreement. When the songs were merely good is when you'd see a lot of disagreement...about how good it was.

[sgs4u]

Quote:Many (most) of the songs you hear in commercial markets aren't the result of taxi forwards. But rather a product of the "who you know" business. So the argument might actually be... are taxi's standards/expectations greater than the average A&R ? If so. Why?Most of the songs you hear in commercial markets, are not the result of Taxi forwards, agreed. They are not a product of who you know, as much as they are a product of someone finding the best songs to convey the 1) emotions, 2) political points of view, and 3) then, who you know. A singer has a dream, someone believes in him, so they create a plan. They do the best job they can of creating a product that will become popular. You can debate 'til the cows come home the merits of a particular artist's sound or direction. Our opinions don't mean squat, if an artist/manager has a brilliant marketing plan. There is room for every kind of music, under the sun. No artist or song must measure up to our standards to sell CD's, or put bums in the seats at shows. All we get to do, is watch and learn from them. If something is very bubblegum, then there's a market for that. If another kind of music is about great lyrics and/or musicianship, then there are also people who will find that interesting enough to buy it. There are certainly debatable reasons why any song is great. I also have to point out very clearly, that there is no rule that every song on any artist's CD, needs to be either great subjectively, or objectively, for reasons you guys have covered. Taxi has a different purpose. And unless you understand song pitching, you will not understand why Taxi's standards MUST be higher. If someone writes what all of us in this thread agree is the best song ever written (which of course is unlikely), and Taxi even agrees, by forwarding to MR. BIG established artist, there is still absolutely no guarantee that that artist will want, or relate to that song. But you can't sit on the sidelines and say Taxi's standards are too high, without understanding the business of song plugging. Those of you that adopt those points of views, are outside the box, looking in. The best way to get your song cut by a famous artist who can make money with it, is to get very close to that artist, whatever way you can, and look them right in the eye, and hand them your CD. It's also the best way to sell your record, if you're an artist. A personal relationship counts for so much, and it's even clear to us forum dots, what it feels like to meet someone in person, after having communicated by email, PM's or forum threads. The next best way, is to have someone hand over your song, who has the trust of who is receiving the tune, to someone in that artist's camp. ie: producer, manager, someone very close, in daily contact with the artist, or whomever is choosing the songs for a CD.If you cannot get your song to either the artist, or someone on their team, your song has to be undeniably better, than anything the artist has created, or gathered thus far. It has to be so good, that dollar signs flash in the eyes of the manager and the artist. If our song is comparable to what they already have, it's not good enough. It has to be WAY better. Those of us who attended the Rally, understand the concept of out of this world good. If you are writing songs for other people to cut, you are in effect asking them, to agree that your song is better than theirs, in order for their own dream to come true. You're also asking them to delete one of their own possibilities, in favor of your choice. So you better have an amazing song, fabulous enough to convince an artist and manager, that they'll be better off with your song, than what they've created thus far.So, if you don't know someone, Taxi is an alternative, but it will always be the 2nd best way to get a cut. Michael and Taxi have even included that point in all their literature.So am I agreeing with the points made thus far, or disagreeing? You guys decide. I'm just tired of what appears to be whining about Taxi's methods, so I guess I'm whining back atcha steve

[gendron]

Matto, I prefer vegetables... (a matter of taste) but i understand your comparison scenario.Unfortunately your 3 contextual examples are simply grapes added to the debate. When a song is perfect for a listing it may go on to sell a ton of records as well. Because it's popular with fans and critics alike. Worst case scenario, of course. Quote:I think you're comparing apples to oranges to pears. The word "great" can mean different things depending on context.In the context of a Taxi listing, "great" means "perfect for this opportunity".In the context of hit radio, "great" means "will sell a ton of records".In the context of artistic merit, "great" means "a piece of art that will stand the test of time".I think you would find a "great" deal of consensus about what is great within each of the above contexts, especially among connaisseurs/experts, but you will find little consensus when you get them all mixed up, for obvious reasons.Also, you're not clear about whether you're talking about the average person's definition of great or that of a connaisseur/expert. Obviously there could be a very big discrepancy between the two. I would expect to see a significant consensus of what great is among conaisseurs of fine art, or song, or classical music. With average people, "taste" would be a much more important factor I think.matto

[horacejesse]

Excellent thread.To put this into perspective, I want to ask: When is food great? If anyone says they know the answer, will you believe them? I can't even believe anyone who says there is a definitive answer. Maybe the food is great because everyone at the barbecue says so. However, the vegetarian across the fence disagrees.Everyone of us knows when we think food is great. If somone else does not like a dish we love, we do not then think that person is stupid or may have poor taste. I think we are more apt to judge a person's intelligence or taste by the music they like than the food they think highly of.People never disagree or argue whether one type of rock is harder than another. There are tests, a mathematical formula. No such test or formula is possible with songs and never can be. There is the individual opinion and the consensus opinion. They jibe or not.The proof that the word great has essentially no meaning is in the dispareity of usage. Large is much more specific than great. Great calls for an opinion right away, large less so, sixteen by twenty-four not at all.Almost everyone we know overflows with opinions on music and food. Do they also overflow with opinions on medicine? Do we find great discrepancy among a majority of citizens on the way a broken arm had ought to be set or the best way to deaden a tooth?Food and music are different. You feel on firmer footing disagreeing with the gourmet than you do the doctor. You feel the doctor knows things you don't, but you may see the gourmet as just another opinionated glutton.When is a song great? When it has great food to go with it.

[squidlips]

Quote:I try not to think or judge when I'm writing the song, it never works for me. As soon as the mind enters, the creative valve isn't completely open. A great thing to do is record the vocals immediatly because you're in that "frame of mind" and sometimes it's hard to capture that same emotion again. I've done it a few times where I wanted to redo it but the vocal just didn't have the same feeling it had the first time around. We all do things differently.

[squidlips]

Quote:When is a song great? When it has great food to go with it.Dang skippy, that's right.

[matto]

Quote:When is food great? If anyone says they know the answer, will you believe them? I can't even believe anyone who says there is a definitive answer. Maybe the food is great because everyone at the barbecue says so. However, the vegetarian across the fence disagrees.Of course people won't agree if bbq or vegetarian is better, that's like asking what's better (greater), hip hop or country. You're comparing cuisines/styles here, not dishes/songs.In my experience there is a lot more of a consensus when you ask a bunch of people what's a great Thai restaurant or Sushi place (that would be the equivalent of artists I guess).And if you asked food critics, or even better, professional chefs to taste a bunch of dishes and proclaim which ones were "great", I suspect you would see even more significant consensus there.I think greatness in food, as in music, is not entirely subjective or a matter of taste at all. Certainly not to a connaisseur or expert.That's what makes it possible to grow, become better and learn from an accomplished chef or songwriter.Of course they are not entirely objective or scientific either (if there is even such a thing), which is what makes them exciting and fun.Didn't really mean to introduce the food analogy actually when I brought up the fruit, but it works pretty well...

[horacejesse]

On a personal level a song is great if it moves me and not great if ti doesn't. It is tough but perhaps not impossible to call a song great that you do not like.With books it is easier. I am perfectly comfortable calling Moby Dick a great book, though it does nothing for me but induce sleep. That probably has something to do with its longevity and the preponderance of top eschelon experts in the field who stand behind the book with all their reputations. By myself I probably would not recognize Moby Dick as a great book.But I cannot call any song great that I do not love, no matter how much others love it or how many experts stand behind it. Unless we are speaking of one of Matt's categories where situation-specific meanings are allowed, then I think when we say a song is great we only mean that we love it and really nothing else.