Country Music Listing Confusion....?!

[ljweber70]

I've been a country music fan all of my life but am running into a bit of confusion on the industries' country music "categories"....In July, I joined TAXI and immediately submitted 5 or 6 of my demos to ALL of the country listings at that time. (I'm learning!) As I am getting my critiques back, its obvious that those songs do not belong in the "country pop" genre and shouldn't have been submitted in the first place. However, I've had multiple screener's review the same song (for different listings) and have contradictory remarks regarding "genre." IE: the same song has been labeled "right on" for a "contemporary" country listing, "too traditional" for another "contemporary" listing and "not close enough to listing" for a "neo traditional listing". I'm a bit confused with the terminology and frustrated in determining what "category" my songs fall in and accordingly, what listings to submit to. What specifically makes a song "contemporary country" vs. "neo traditional" vs. "traditional"? For example, some listings want "neo" traditional country -- "think Brad Paisley..." What makes Brad Paisley's music "neo" ?? In my opinion, Brad Paisley is a traditional country artist with a "neo" production on his CD's. Providing the screener loves everything else about the song, can my production be the deciding factor whether or not I get the forward? Surely I don't need a regular and "club mix" of a song for submissions..?? Any guidance in this area would be greatly appreciated!Thank you,Larry Weber

[squidlips]

Hi Larry!Well, I feel your pain and I don't even write for country! I mean, Brad Paisley?? Hello, isn't neo something more like Rascal Flatts (crossing over into pop) or Jewel (crossing over FROM pop) right now? Brad's almost a standard in the biz now, he's been around so long. I'd have considered Nickel Creek (in their day) as neo. Something innovative, like Gretchen was a couple of years ago. Brad's been washing his stuff through a new producer but I don't consider that neo.I wish I had something constructive to offer....maybe one of the other vets here could tell you. Just wanted you to know I understand where you are with this. It's frustrating to figure out their criteria and even then, it can vary from one reviewer to another, which only complicates things more. I've had this happen to me a number of times. I really keep an eye on the ala's in the listing to help me narrow down what they're looking for but, in the end, it's still in the eye of the reviewer.Good luck. Hope someone here can help make this more clear to you.

[clonsberry]

Quote:What's really frustrating is when some yuppie from California is trying to tell a redneck from Tennessee what is and is not country...In the wise words of David Allan Coe and Jimmy Rabbitt.... "and I don't need some turkey telling me that I ain't country.."Apparently, the problem isn't that new.

[jchitty]

Quote:I've been a country music fan all of my life but am running into a bit of confusion on the industries' country music "categories"....In July, I joined TAXI and immediately submitted 5 or 6 of my demos to ALL of the country listings at that time. (I'm learning!) As I am getting my critiques back, its obvious that those songs do not belong in the "country pop" genre and shouldn't have been submitted in the first place. However, I've had multiple screener's review the same song (for different listings) and have contradictory remarks regarding "genre." IE: the same song has been labeled "right on" for a "contemporary" country listing, "too traditional" for another "contemporary" listing and "not close enough to listing" for a "neo traditional listing". I'm a bit confused with the terminology and frustrated in determining what "category" my songs fall in and accordingly, what listings to submit to. What specifically makes a song "contemporary country" vs. "neo traditional" vs. "traditional"? For example, some listings want "neo" traditional country -- "think Brad Paisley..." What makes Brad Paisley's music "neo" ?? In my opinion, Brad Paisley is a traditional country artist with a "neo" production on his CD's. Providing the screener loves everything else about the song, can my production be the deciding factor whether or not I get the forward? Surely I don't need a regular and "club mix" of a song for submissions..?? Any guidance in this area would be greatly appreciated!Thank you,Larry Weber I can only give examples of what I think are the different breakdowns of traditional, neo-traditional and contemporary.Traditional: When I think of traditional, I think of people like Patsy Cline, Kitty Wells, George Jones, Merle Haggard, Hank Sr., Loretta, Tammy etc.. As far as NEW 'traditional' country artists, the closest thing to that would be Chris Young. And that's debatable.....he may even go into the neo-traditional category. I don't really see many listings for traditional country artists out there anymore though. Traditional country artists are still around, but I see them more in bluegrass venues now, even alt-country listings. I actually break down Neo-Traditional, although if a listing says Neo-traditional, it most likely just means a wide category of country artists. When I think 'old school' Neo-Traditional, I think Alan Jackson, Vince Gill, Sammy Kershaw, Tracy Lawrence (got a fantastic song out right now though), Patty Loveless, George Strait, Randy Travis....anyone who basically was part of the music scene in Nashville in the late 80's and early 90's. These folks were influenced by the traditionalists, but their music was a little more palatable to baby boomers while retaining its country roots. It's still great music, just not the pure traditional stuff. When I think 'new school' Neo-Traditional, (people who were influenced by the people in the late to middle 80's and early 90's), I think Brad Paisley, Joe Nichols, Kenny Chesney, Blake Shelton, Trace Atkins, Gretchen Wilson etc. Some of the newer neo-traditionalists have even done some more contemporary stuff, so it can be confusing at times, but basically, they do stick to a certain pattern.When I think contemporary country, I think Little Big Town, Keith Urban, Montgomery Gentry (at least that's what I've been told, although they sound Neo sometimes), Rascal Flatts, and The Wreckers, etcThen there are people who are just hard to classify to me....folks like Carrie Underwood (could be both contemporary and neo-traditional), Kelly Pickler, Big & Rich, etc.You really have to listen to lots of country music....go to a library and familiarize yourself with all the music through the years....go back as early as the 40s even. You'll start to get a feel for what's what. I usually hit my targets pretty well....it's usually my lyrics or melodies that suffer, but I do get a few screener comments indicating that I know the market. Country might seem simple, but it takes a lot of study and listening to all types of country music to know the nuances of what listings are asking for. My one mess up was recently....when I submitted to a Montgomery Gentry listing, my submissions weren't targeted as well. Hope that helped.BTW, I LOVE country music!

[jchitty]

Being a country songwriter is the toughest thing in the world right now....Nashville is always evolving, and it was tough enough to write a good Neo-traditional song....now, you have to figure out how to make a country song sound like a pop song as well, thus, 'modern country.' It's very tough grunt work as far as I'm concerned, but worth every minute of it.

[jchitty]

Quote:Quote:That song is so over the top funny, it works. Loretta was the best and still is.Have you heard "I Miss Being Mrs. Tonight"? It is a wonderful song.I'll have to check it out, Horace. That's one I haven't heard. I own Loretta Lynn's "The Definitive Collection" CD, but that song isn't on there. Good stuff like "You're Looking At Country, "Don't Come Home A-Drinkin, "The Pill" and "Coal Miner's Daughter" is there though. Oh, and "One's On the Way" and her duet with Conway...."Louisiana Woman, Mississippi Man."When I start talking about Loretta, I go overboard a bit. I just love her.Hmm, wait a minute, maybe I have heard 'I Miss Being Mrs. Tonight' once....it was on a documentary about Loretta I believe....is that the song she wrote after Doo Lynn died? I'll have to admit that I haven't listened as much to her newer stuff, including her work with Jack White.....gotta get with the program.

[sgs4u]

I'm not a fan of lawyers making decisions about music either. and, you sure didn't sound like a redneck with that last post tho. Pretty well-thought, if you ask me. steve

[jchitty]

Quote:I know, you're right. It's really not Taxi. So how about I take it out on Nashville then?Here's my beef:1. Country originated as, and still is to a point, ethnic music.2. The fact that it is, or was at one time, Southern white ethnic music makes some people in Nashville think it needs to be changed into some kind of universalist nonsense in order to make it politically correct, since "Southern" and "White" said in the same sentence implies stereotypes that are as bigoted as the images those stereotypes evoke.3. Not everyone in Nashville is like this, but a lot are. Examples of artists not buying into this b.s. are Montgomery Gentry, Toby Keith, and VanZandt. However, even these artists are compelled to do some compromise in order to get radio play. 4. "No hillbilly" means that whoever is shopping tunes is not only marketing to the "wider audience", meaning the lite rock audience, but it also means that they're bigoted against Southern people based on deeply rooted stereotypes, and this is the only type of blatant bigotry still acceptable in our society. If I put out a listing for "blues songs that don't sound n-word", how would that go over? I can't even use that word, nor do I want to, but I can use "hillbilly". I am a "hillbilly", and we're only allowed to call each other that.All types of music evolve, and I'm not against that. They incorporate new influences, experience innovations, etc. What I am against is a small group of people who are not traditionally connected with a specific genre of music invading it with their own focus-grouped, money grubbing agenda and attempting to irreversibly alter it into something unrecognizable. Especially when I'm an ignorant redneck trailer-park hillbilly and they don't put out much music that I like. Forget writing for others, I'll just go play the stuff myself for better or worse.Excellent post. Southerners are the last group you can objectify without any backlash.However, as excellent as your post is, you can lament how Nashville has changed all you want, but you're really barking up the wrong tree....it's not the music execs who may be destroying country music, it's the consuming public.Until the buying public demands more roots based country, it will be biz as usual. Also, as much as I like some of Toby Keith's or Montgomery Gentry's stuff, I see them as part of the Nashville status quo...yeah, Toby is considered an outlaw, but he still gets tons of radio play and so does Montgomery Gentry. I see them both as 'modern country,' not the traditional 'hillbilly' stuff....you'd have to go back to Alan Jackson, Vince Gill, Loretta Lynn or Merle H. for that.Actually, 'hillbilly' stuff is found more in 'alt-country' listings now.

[jchitty]

Quote:Well, Steve,This is a web forum, and I don't know the gender of others unless it's obvious, bro, so I guess my hillbilly, redneck, chauvinistic nature made me assume jchitty was male and not female due to my propensity to believe that anyone in a business environment must be a man. Sorry for calling you bro, you might be named Steve and be a chick. That's all cultural. I think out in San Fransisco there might be 2 lesbians who are married, and named Jake and Marvin. They probably moved to Franklin, Tenessee and became record company executives. I think I'm just going to go brush my tooth and go to bed...Hey, if you want to know the gender of others, most of the time, they have it printed on their profile. (some opt not to show their gender)You know, if anyone is dealing in stereotypes about Southerners, you just might be your own worst enemy here. I know you're saying most of this tongue in cheek, (to affirm your love of being Southern and loving country music, thus the hillbilly references) but you should be careful.If anyone is Southern, it's me. I've lived in Birmingham, Alabama all my life, so that's about as Southern as you can get. Southerners come in all shapes and sizes, and they aren't just people who lament the passing of traditional country music. Maybe that is why Nashville has to change a little....because the New South has changed along with it over the years. I live in a suburb, not a 'trailer' as you joked in a post before this.....once again, I know you were doing this to drive a point home, but some might not see it that way. Birmingham is a cosmopolitan city, home to an art museum, a ballet, a civil rights museum, and it's ringed all around by various affluent suburbs. There are four star restaurants here, believe it or not. Most people have heard of Frank Stitt....he's a world famous chef, and he lives here and owns "The Highlands" a culinary dream.There is even a Saks Fifth Avenue here in one of our many malls that also contain restaurants like The Cheesecake Factory and the Californina Pizza Kitchen. There are also some very liberal pockets of voters (blue staters as some people call them), and about 50 percent of the voters in Birmingham vote Democratic and not Republican.We also have a world class medical center, The University of Alabama hospital, which is in the forefront of making strides on curing cancer. And we don't make jokes about lesbians moving to Nashville to become record execs unless we're friends with 'em. (some of my best friends are...)Now, does racism still exist? Yes, but it exists on a more covert level now, but honestly, I've traveled all over New England and I've seen covert racism there as well.....it exists everywhere.Now, when you travel outside of the Birmingham city limits, you'll find 'hillbillies in trailers' but even they are part of the new growth the South has experienced over the years. Go to any small Southern town, and you'll see restaurant chains and shopping malls. And what's so interesting is that these 'hillbillies' you speak of don't care for the old style traditional music. Guess what, they like modern country....that's right. They don't want to listen to Willie Nelson. They are younger folks who want to listen to Kenny Chesney and Keith Urban. They look up to their country music heros, and they are not cowboys. And no record exec (or suit) in Nashville is forcing them to listen to that type of music. These are the folks who also pay tons of money to see artists like Faith Hill and Tim McGraw in concert.....they were one of the biggest concert draws this year.And if you want to get 'regional,' Alabamians don't see Texans as Southerners sometimes, although they like Texans. (Horace will bust me for this, hehe) But to them, Texans are Southwestern, and there is a difference....so the music that happens in Texas have always been seen by Nashvillians as 'outlaw' in some sense. As Steve pointed out, Willie Nelson was always an outsider in Nashville, although years later, he did get radio play there. But when he first started out singing and writing songs such as 'Crazy', they didn't know what to do with him. There are some exceptions to the rule of course....George Strait was embraced by Nashville as were some groups like Little Texas. Texas traditional country is a bit different from Nashville traditional country. Bob Wills and Hank Williams Jr. while similar....well, they still had different styles. Years ago, there were even distinctions, thus the phrase 'Country and Western." Now everything is just lumped into "Country."And one other thing, you say market segments are being ignored by Nashville, but that doesn't really matter. Because there are traditional country groups out there who get their music to the public despite all this. If you want to talk Appalacian based roots music, check out The Old Crow Medicine Show. They spent their formative years learning how to play what you'd call real country.....they even learned from Doc Watson. They are a bluegrass based band. Their music is fantastic, and they've sold millions of CDs so far. They are also very active on a concert circuit, and they really don't need Nashville. So if a country fan doesn't like Nashville's produce, they can go elsewhere.Nashville is just one marketing arm of the country music machine, a big arm yes, but if you truly want roots based country (or whatever you call it) then you just have to seek it out and go the the alt-country section in your local CD shop.....you make it sound like Nashville is the be all and end all. Maybe it's because you live there, but for us folks on the outside, we find a way to get the music we want.It's big tent out there, and one man's 'garbage' is another man's treasure. I like the old stuff too, and I'm guessing you and I could sit down together, and we'd have the same musical tastes, but this is a new market, and you have to write for that, like it or not. I'm not so narrow that I can't embrace some of the newer country, and I don't like imposing my musical values on others.BTW, thanks to Steve for the nice kudos.

[ddusty]

Well said, Chits.To sum it up, we feel your pain jimmy. Another way to look at this, is this is really just a music business issue, not a big plan to wipe out the "hillbillies".It happens in all forms of music. Real Singer/Songwriters are passed over for bing to "folky", and instead you get pop music ala john mayer and james blunt.Alternative rock started with Nirvana/Soundgarden and the industry turned to Candlebox/Lincoln ParkEven rap music started with Public Enemy/Run DMC, but what passes these days is more of the "B!thces and Hoes" stuff.I am not knocking the stuff that is out now, but I do not feel it is on par with the "originators". Country music is no exception. Even Americana/Roots Rock (which is the genre that i pitch to the most) is being effected. A lot of the listings now will say a la KT Tunstall. I like KT, but IMHO her album sounds poppy to me, speaking from a production point of view. I guess it's the cross over appeal that is "watering down" all genres. As an artist I don't like the trend because I feel like it takes away from the music a little bit.As a business man I like it because it's a way of reaching more people.Many of us TAXI members will probably be viewed as "sell outs" to "hard core" musicians, because we want to get paid for our work, and we are not afraid to put our music in a tv/movie/commercial, and to them maybe we are part of the problem. to me we are just playing by the rules of the game.In closing, I would like to quote a wise man (who is also a wise a$$ by his own admission ) by saying:Quote: Drink the purple kool-aid, and everything will be jes fine, son.Rob