great Presidential speech

[drew]

Sept 19, 2009, 10:23am, ggalen wrote:Drew,Thanks for tasking the time to answer.I did read it.One conclusion I have come to is this: when you hand out free food to starving people, selfish people who have food at home are going to get in line and cheat.So do we stop handing out free food? No. That hurts good people who need it. I say just try to stop the cheaters as best you can. Cannot eliminate it. There will always be selfish, lazy humans who cheat.But don't let them stop you from helping the people who really need help.I don't think the emergency room method we have today is a good one: too expensive overall. And I agree that there need to be natural consequences for being lazy.The trouble is, we too often say being poor is because people are being lazy, and I have come to see it is sometimes just not that simple.No disagreements from me.

[heinsite]

ah, i think drew and glenn are reaching an accord! LOL...one problem with the uninsured is this: when they go to the local emergency room, and i don't know one (but i'm in california...) that turns anybody away...WHO PAYS? we all do. and it's usually local and more REAL closer to home dollars, especially if it's a county hospital. most counties in this state do get some fed and state funds to operate (not just medicare for the ACTUAL care...) but building them and keeping them running...that's local--as in property, etc taxes--that many of us pay. it aint no insurance "company" but our property taxes and any money from the state/feds that the counties can scrape up to survive keeping these hospitals open. now i'm NOT an expert on emergency rooms, but know that the costs from folks without insurance (and most are citizens...) is tremendous. THAT needs to be fixed. got to run...wh

[billg]

Warren, if everyone has to have some type of health insurance I think that will take care of the emergency room problem.The ONLY thing that will bring the bast%^ds at the insurance companies back down to earth is a public option.Anyone concerned about their family's healthcare tab should be pretty freaked at the costs projection of 22k a yr average) within 15 yrs at the current rate of increase. The Bogus er, Baukus bill won't help that. In fact it looks like a present to the insurance companies to me, and if that bill is passed you will see the 22k a yr. figure reached in less than 15yrs.

[ggalen]

I heard an important analysis that said the real problem is not the high cost of an individual procedure, it's the number of unneeded procedures and tests that are done...because doctors and hospitals get paid every time they do anything, even if it is useless and unneeded!So, the incentives need to change. We need to reduce the incentive to "over treat".

[mojobone]

Perhaps a few Republicans might be willing to trade some limited medical tort reform for a public option. In any case, it looks like the handle on the giant sausage grinder is beginning to turn; the Baucus bill is evidence that some folks on capitol hill are aware of the public perception that the Republicans have proposed nothing of substance, despite John Boehner's ridiculous assertions. It's beginning to look like we may get a bill. Or three.Oh and Glen, there's also defensive medicine and fraud to contend with; it ain't jes' insurance CEO salaries, they're really not all that out of line, considering the amounts of money they're entrusted with, and most of 'em are doing a better job than Lehman Bros, AIG, etc. The problem being they do their jobs too well, in fact-IMO the heart of the problem and why we need the public option. But why just one public option? We could have several with different levels of service-just make sure nobody needs a law degree to understand 'em and let the world's greatest consumers shop for themselves.

[jjktunes]

http://www.gopleader.gov/UploadedFiles/ ... e.pdfAfter reading this I don't see a lot that's keeping us from being on the same page. Looks like we want the same thing, it's just that one of us don't want the government getting in between point a and point b. I'm not here to argue and be a smart a!!, and call people idiots or tell them they are stupid. I just spent nine days at Vanderbilt Hospital here in Nashville with my little girl who was very sick. I saw babies and teenagers that broke my heart because of the shape they were in. The day my wife and I took my little girl home we walked past a few kid's rooms knowing unless a miracle takes place they want be going home, what mixed emotions I had inside me, I was thankful and sad at the same time. I think we all could agree that whoever makes the final decision on this bill they should have to see the same picture I did during my stay at the hospital. These are the innocent ones, they can't help it if they have dead beat parents that are able to work but choose to sit on their fat lazy butts and put their kids health in jeopardy. I just hope that in the end it will be better for all of us American citizens.

[mojobone]

I don't understand this persistent myth that the poor are lazy and don't want to work. Nearly every poor person I know is poor by circumstance rather than choice. (except me, I chose to be a musician, ha, well, sorta)A waitress who had a down syndrome baby, a gal who ended up becoming a stripper to support her daughter because she had no skills save dancing and didn't have the ability to learn any, retarded or lower-functioning, blind, crippled, emotionally unstable, schizophrenic, addicted. You'd be surprised how unemployable a person with severe ADD is. Some people are too old to swing a hammer and too dumb to learn a new skill. Then there's folks who could learn, but can't afford another education. Most of the homeless are people who would have been institutionalized, in the pre-Reagan era. A substantial portion of the prison population is also mentally ill. (but at least they receive better healthcare than most of the poor) Then there are those that are underemployed or can't find work at all due to drug-related non-violent felonies. I have less sympathy for them, but where I'm from, you go to prison, your life changes forever, because there are very few jobs for felons, and why? For doing the same things a lot of other people did, but didn't get caught.It's beyond my understanding when people who call themselves Christians have no desire, nor even interest in helping those less fortunate than themselves. We have a saying, "There, but for the grace of God, go I", and it means that if you think you're better than somebody, you got another 'think' coming.

[ggalen]

Mojobone.I, too. am baffled as to how so many fundamentalist followers of Christ ended up being so staunchly against welfare programs for the poor and sick.It seems more logical that people who try to pattern their lives after Christ's example would be all about hanging out with the "least among us", the prostitutes, drug addicts and dealers (who are reviled like the tax collectors of Christ's time). But I don't see that. I don't see them championing universal health care for all.When and how did this happen?Today it seems to be the liberal , left wing Christian congregations that are all for "social justice", welfare programs, food shelves. Women's programs and shelters. And universal healthcare.Well, there is the Salvation Army, which is conservative. But the agenda of the Far Right Christians seems to be just about sexual and abortion issues, and as low taxes as possible. Oh, and international military supremacy . That, too.I dunno. It baffles me.How did such a large portion of the Church become affiliated with the conservative business establishment? No disrespect intended here for Christians. I am just asking here, wanting to understand how this current situation came to be, and when.Maybe some strong conservative Christians here can tell me how this works.

[jjktunes]

Sept 20, 2009, 9:26am, mojobone wrote:I don't understand this persistent myth that the poor are lazy and don't want to work. Nearly every poor person I know is poor by circumstance rather than choice. (except me, I chose to be a musician, ha, well, sorta)A waitress who had a down syndrome baby, a gal who ended up becoming a stripper to support her daughter because she had no skills save dancing and didn't have the ability to learn any, retarded or lower-functioning, blind, crippled, emotionally unstable, schizophrenic, addicted. You'd be surprised how unemployable a person with severe ADD is. Some people are too old to swing a hammer and too dumb to learn a new skill. Then there's folks who could learn, but can't afford another education. Most of the homeless are people who would have been institutionalized, in the pre-Reagan era. A substantial portion of the prison population is also mentally ill. (but at least they receive better healthcare than most of the poor) Then there are those that are underemployed or can't find work at all due to drug-related non-violent felonies. I have less sympathy for them, but where I'm from, you go to prison, your life changes forever, because there are very few jobs for felons, and why? For doing the same things a lot of other people did, but didn't get caught.It's beyond my understanding when people who call themselves Christians have no desire, nor even interest in helping those less fortunate than themselves. We have a saying, "There, but for the grace of God, go I", and it means that if you think you're better than somebody, you got another 'think' coming.Mojo is that what I said ? NO ! I said the ones that CAN work and choose not to, there is a big difference in what you are talking about. Out of what I just posted is that all you got from it ? I am a christian and I have said plenty of times I am all for helping the ones that can't help themselves. I AM for helping the kids of those that can work but choose not to, but do you want your money going to people that are perfectly able to work but choose not to ? I can't believe you don't get what I'm saying. Did I say the that all poor people are lazy ? Do you not know any deadbeats like I am talking about ? Just show me where I said such thing.

[ggalen]

I didn't think mojobone was talking about anyone in particular.I also am against helping lazy people. So is Mojo, I'd think.But I still want welfare programs and universal healthcare.Just be careful so lazy people can't cheat. And err on the side of letting some cheaters through over denying hardworking poor and sick the help they need.That's my position.