great Presidential speech

[mojobone]

I'm glad someone 'got' the feeble attempt at humor; I'm aware that immigration reform is also a bit of a hot button issue, and no easy answers there, either.

[llama]

Sept 18, 2009, 3:23pm, mojobone wrote:I'm glad someone 'got' the feeble attempt at humor; I'm aware that immigration reform is also a bit of a hot button issue, and no easy answers there, either. Well I thought it was funny, anyway......

[squids]

Sept 18, 2009, 6:21am, drew wrote:Sept 18, 2009, 6:03am, ggalen wrote:Cyndy,I take it you or members of your family have not had the "pleasure" of being denied payment of a major medical bill by your private insurance company.Or being denied coverage at all. Or having your monthly premiums jacked to the sky after you got sick.There's a lot not to like about the current system when the CEO of United Healthcare gets $102,000 per hour. Talk about a waste of money that could be going to help pay medical bills...Glenn, our posts crossed.Cyndy stated she has had the 'pleasure' of being denied medical treatment "for her KIDS", what diff does it make if it's by a CEO or a gov making/spending multiple trillions a year and wasting much, if not most, of it. Members of my family have been denied by insurance companies many times, I have had to fight them on these occasions, yes, it is unfair and greedy of them, but I held their feet to the fire and WON. There is no appeal process with the gov, just ask Cyndy. The first NO is the final NO. I'd gladly pay more money to a bureaucrat than a CEO if it'll keep my family well and safe. But the b'crat will take my money anyway and still provide a predetermined budget allowance to me and my family. I don't want to be as 'satisfied' with my healthcare as Cyndy is, I'll pay for more satisfaction.Not to throw gas on the fire but my clients who aren't in hospice are denied SSI, Medicaid, etc, first time out. My hospice patients are denied, first time out. Both of them, every single time. We then send a letter from the doc explaining that a) this person has these symptoms which require them to be at home and b) this person will not live, sadly, for your six weeks' review of coverage nor will they live long past getting your first check. However, since their family is now short their loved one's paycheck (because they can't survive without chemo or they're going to die fairly soon), it's imperative that they get their collective asses moving.I get them to say yes the 2nd time. I haven't lost anyone before their first check comes in. So far. As for native Americans, we can't use that as an example that fits well with the rest of the populace. My mom is half/half and her family tells me that if they hadn't got their butts whipped by white men, they wouldn't be sitting in some of the worst places in the world getting the worst care in the world. They're right. Since the rest of the country hasn't experienced the same situation (barring the south, who got our collective butts whipped once and apparently, again (after Katrina)), it's not a given that a population of majority white folk who've never known defeat will be cared for in the same way. The majority of the country haven't been rounded up and sent to essential camps with awful care. Not yet. It happens to aboriginal populations and it's allowed to happen because the majority haven't experienced the same and don't have a frame of reference up to now. Until they do, they're going to demand access to the best care in the world for the dollar and they're going to have the power to put that into effect. This whole thread is about the entitlement to that power, without the gratitude that goes with it. We're almost half and half insured/uninsured in Mississippi Yes, some docs give discounts but lots do not. Docs tell me they can't afford to give discounts much beyond $25 per $150 spent, since their overhead is so massive and their school loans are so high and someone has to reimburse their families for all their time away, etc (actual quotes from actual docs, firsthand). Hence, the uninsured (friends of mine, too) spend their sick time in one of two places: the ER, where they will not be able to pay their bill (and most have a sick feeling for entirely different reasons) or at home, where they hope they won't die. Kinda a tradition down here. Honestly, I'm really sick to death of shouting matches and political mudslinging. I'd like to see an answer to the chokehold insurance companies have on us (all insurance, btw). Their stockholders, many times corporations themselves, demand a massive return for their investment. And they're getting it. The housing insurance industry posted record profits (impossible profit margins) the four quarters following Katrina while denying all of us even what we've paid in premiums. The health insurance industry is, sadly, in a position to do the same and I see them doing it a lot more now than they did 8 or 9 years ago and they'll continue to do it. There will never be a perfect solution. But there must be one that gets the job done to as many as possible as soon as possible.

[billg]

Sept 18, 2009, 1:30pm, jmeraz wrote:Sorry, Bill. I wasn't trying to cherry-pick. If I've gotten it wrong, my bad, and I do want to understand the truth. I'm still not seeing, though, that what I posted was incorrect. There is no mechanism for checking citizenship, as far as I can tell. If that's correct, then Wilson was correct (though he was absolutely wrong in the way he voiced it) in saying that the bill in practice doesn't exclude illegals.Also, the part about requiring illegals to have insurance, and fining them if they show up at ER's seems a bit strange. Do we know who these people are? If so, instead of fining them or requiring they buy something, could we just deport them? (I'm not sniping, but asking a real, if perhaps simplistic, question; I have no understanding of what it takes to deport someone.) I think it's worth asking: can we really expect to force illegals to pay fines and purchase something on a monthly basis?I don't think you read the entire link I posted. Surprisingly (at least it surprised me) it's estimated that 50% of illegal aliens actually already have, and pay for, their own insurance.The issue of what we should do about illegal aliens is a different thing altogether. It is impossible to round everybody up and deport them, especially because many have children who are now citizens because they were born here.So the healthcare situation as it relates to illegals is more of a humanitarian/economic issue. How can we treat a segment of the population that has no healthcare without either raising healthcare costs or increases taxes on everyone else? The answer is what has been proposed . . . everyone regardless of race, creed, imigration status, haircolor, etc. has to have some form of health insurance. That will bring the cost down for all of us (in theory).There are exceptions and that is for those that are poverty stricken andcan't pay . . . they will get assistance. THIS ASSISTANCE WILL NOTGO TO ILLEGALS. It says so in plain language.Joe Wilson and the Republican point about confirming status is moot. The illegals will get zero assistance. They will not be taxpayer burdens.And why on earth would they need to prove they are here legally if they have an insurance card when they walk into the emergency room?I have to think Wilson knew this but would probably rather find a way to deport all of the illegals so the whole thing sticks in his craw. But he was absolutely wrong with the 'You Lie" thing. Read the bill, it's there in pretty plain English . . . at least as plain as politicians and lawyers can make something.

[billg]

Sept 18, 2009, 1:59pm, llama wrote:Sept 18, 2009, 1:25pm, mojobone wrote:Or, I suppose, we could simply herd them all into camps...sounds horribly expensive without some kind of...final solution. Unless we could sell them to China, don't they need more cheap labor there? No?Nice hyperbole LOL!!! No, pretty simple...Punish the companies that employ illegals and the magnet is turned off. People will leave on their own accord.Sorry to disappoint Mojo...Anyone who doesn't agree with Obama is EVIL!!! EEVVVIIILLL I tell ya..ha ha ha.. DerekI agree with you on that. When this entire issue was really being kicked up I though that prosecuting people who hired the illegals was the best way to clear things up. But the labor is cheap and in this country greed usually wins.Then there is the other problem that I mentioned. There are illegals here who have children that are citizens in elementary school who barely speak Spainish. There are those who are caring for lovedones who are too sick to be deported. A lot of other complications. Nope, the only thing we can really do at this point is to stop the folks from puring over the border from here on out and try to figure a way to deal with the problem that WE created in the first place. There is really no way that an employer can hire someone and NOT know if they are a citizen ofr not . . . these businesses created the problem . . . we created the problem now we need to figure a way to make it right.Having it required of everyone to have a health insurance plan is a good start IMO.

[mojobone]

I think we should simply annex Mexico. Half their population lives here, already, and we could build a much smaller fence along the Guatemalan border. Of course, in order to make that work, we'd have to legalize marijuana and execute the entire Mexican government, but it's by far the cheapest way to solve the problem. And no, not being facetious, here, jes' thinkin' outside the box.

[heinsite]

geeze us Mojo, this just popped up when i got on...so i have to read page 6 now...but honestly, my wife and i were talking about that, and yes, seriously--not exactly an annex, but a talk about "joining forces". screw the fence issue, man what a great nation it would be--in about 20 years. i've often thought that more coop with cuba would absolutely make us friends to the point of it being like puerto rico,,,,they aint no threat to nobody, except those that are afraid of communism--LOL--them, north korea and...and...well, nobody very important anymore.just thinking outside the box, might not be a new box BTW,,,not for me and many anyway.now i've got to read the end of page 6.wh

[mojobone]

Please, Castro's been deader than communism since July of 2006; the only reason nobody's calling out Raul is....convenience? That and maybe the clout of the anti-Castro Cuban faction in Florida.Wait, no! The CIA refuses to admit it was natural causes, yeah, that the (plausible) ticket.

[drew]

Sept 18, 2009, 3:41pm, squids wrote:Not to throw gas on the fire... Squids, I don't see opinions and facts as slinging gas, but I don't see a fire either. Nothing wrong with us giving our own observations and hearing the other side of things. Anyone who sees a firestorm here has their own problems to deal with.Glenn, sorry to cause you so much agitation by not answering your questions, I misunderstood your questions, honest! You asked "Do people have a right to healthcare", I answered "No, as of now it is not a 'right'. True and accurate.As I understand it now the question is "Should people have a 'right' (as in gov provided) to healthcare". If I'm still wrong on this question you are welcomed in correcting me again. If it becomes a gov granted right to all Americans (and, questionably, illegal aliens) then YOU AND ME are required to provide it and pay for it, NOT THE GOV'MENT.You asked what I thought (I hate thinking hard on Saturday morns unless it's about football), here goes:Any rights granted takes A LOT of money, experience tells me the gov will take too much and waste too much for it to be fiscally responsible (besides the fact that it's impossible to audit). But worse, it will affect the care of my family, and yes, I'm very selfish about this. And it will be forever, even if it turns out to be a disaster.In this country we are not even granted the right to food! Much more important than healthcare. But I don't want that either. If you can't pay for your food, water, elect., or beer, you don't get it, though there are local orgs to help out, I'm sure most of us even have a neighbor that will give us a beer. I can picture standing in line to get my weekly ration of food from the gov. YES, THERE WILL BE RATIONING! Denying this falls on deaf ears. This seems to be the biggest concern from American citizens rather than the popular 'racist' reason promoted by lapdogs.I read mojo's topstory article, he always puts such good articles. This one started with the Bill Clinton method of "tearing heartstrings or demonizing" to make a point, it seems everyone does that now. Of course there are MANY tragic stories, most of us have our own examples to refer to (I have never told you folks of the death of my younger brother 6 years ago, and I won't because personal heartbreak doesn't matter in a national debate, unless you are Clintonesque). Most people who choose not to buy insurance know they are taking a chance but they are willing to go to a doctors office when needed. They feel it's cheaper paying for appointments (about $60 in Louisiana) than insurance. And they are right, until disaster strikes. Some can't afford insurance (two of my three kids, unemployed since the O took the reigns) but I will make sure they go to their GP when ill. One has wound up in emergency room service because he (and I) couldn't afford a proper hospital visit. I know it's tougher asking family and friends to help out with a doc appointment than it is to ask taxpayers, but it's been the solution for years and years. NO ONE WANTS YOU TO DIE!Your next two questions:Or should some have to go without?And if so, under what circumstances should they have to go without?Ahhhh, trick questions, no right answer. Well, except "Yes and No"Some can't afford proper insurance or medical care, but that doesn't mean they 'should' have to go without. That's why it is required that hospitals treat them anyway. Yes, we give them the needed care they need now, except GP appointments. Yeah, I know, you didn't like that one the first time I used it.But to require me to pay for insurance and suffer from rationed healthcare just so I can pay for ALL Americans insurance I have a problem with. Just like I don't want to pay for their food and have mine rationed.I don't want to buy insurance or food for that young adult dropout living in mom's basement playing video games when he should "GO GET A JOB". So the ones deserving of help from you and me will be denied due to the undeserving folks (and there are plenty/too many of them).Finally:What would you change about the current system?I answered that there is SO MUCH that it would be too long and boring to answer, I still say that. Any shortened answer I could give would be attacked for all the details I would have to leave out. But starting with:real tort reform, changing the dem created entitlement mentality, lobbyist inspired insurance regulations set up by the gov that appeases and benefits lawyers and insurance companies which allows these two groups to pull much money from hardworking Americans to pad their wallets, etc, etc.... In general, I'd have to say protection of the medical industry from those that don't care about health, only money.They claim the only way to do this is by gov takeover, I say BS.I bet NOBODY reads all this crap

[ggalen]

Drew,Thanks for tasking the time to answer.I did read it.One conclusion I have come to is this: when you hand out free food to starving people, selfish people who have food at home are going to get in line and cheat.So do we stop handing out free food? No. That hurts good people who need it. I say just try to stop the cheaters as best you can. Cannot eliminate it. There will always be selfish, lazy humans who cheat.But don't let them stop you from helping the people who really need help.I don't think the emergency room method we have today is a good one: too expensive overall. And I agree that there need to be natural consequences for being lazy.The trouble is, we too often say being poor is because people are being lazy, and I have come to see it is sometimes just not that simple.