Modes/Improvisation

[stephen]

Hey listen... I've been thinking most of us know about secondary dominants and diminished chords and the modes that go with them. Dorian Phrygian etc. not we can have a V7/V chord that would be treated a a Mixolydian chord, but why can we have a Dorian of II chord or Dorian of III chord. So if I'm in C major my Dorian would be D minor 7 and my Dorian of two in the key of C major would be E minor 7 b5.Any I making any sense here??

[gongchime]

You're making sense and that might be possible if there was a tradition of doing that. Historically though, Dorian is referring to the interval relationship of whole steps and half steps. The definition of Dorian as it currently stands is 1 1/2 1 1 1 1/2 1 not "of a chord".However, we can do things such as play Dorian over any minor triadic or seventh chord even if the other chords imply that it should be Aeolian right there. That's what's frequently done in jazz. Same with Major chords. You've got a Major chord and the other chords imply the scale should be Ionian right there but for color, we play a Lydian scale just then. Over dominant chords there is a wide variety of scales that can be played such as whole tone scales, half-whole scales and Lydian-Dominant scales etc...The other fun thing to do is sideslipping which is often done in modal jazz tunes such as So What, Impressions, Blue Bossa, Equinox, Footprints, Maiden Voyage, Stolen Moments etc..., where you're going along playing some scale belonging to the key or related to it, then you move the scale up or down a half step and play that for a second then come back to the previous scale you were playing before. It creates tension and release and sounds great if done right.

[stephen]

I think I'll start the II/something trend then

[mazz]

Stephen,As Greg said, Dorian is a mode, not a key or chord. As soon as you play an Emin7b5 you've started to modulate to Dminor, since that chord doesn't exist in C major.Another great trick I learned from my teacher is something he calls "borrowing from minor", which is essentially temporarily using chords from a minor key while staying in a major key. An example of this would be to change a II V in C major to Dmin7b5 G7b9b13 and then move to C maj whatever. Those two chords don't exist in C major but are temporarily "borrowed" from C minor for coloristic effect. This is done in jazz all the time.Cheers!Mazz

[mewman]

My understanding of it is that the modes are all derived from the major scale. In the case of a C major scale, if you start on the root, or C, then you have C Ionian...C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C if you start on the second note, D, then you have the Dorian mode...D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D, If you start on the third note, E, then you have E Phrygian...E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E...and so on...F Lydian, G Mixolydian, A Aeolian, and B Locrian. As Gonchime said, The Dorian mode as well as all the others, have a specific intervalic structure. No matter which key you are in, the Dorian mode of that key will always have the same series of intervals. If you change the key, then the roots of each mode will change but the sequence will always be the same. For example....If we switch to the key of Bb then the modes become Bb Ionian, C Dorian, D Phrygian, Eb Lydian, F Mixolydian, G Aeolian, A Locrian...etcIf, as in standard tertiary cord construction, you stack thirds above each scale degree of any chosen mode, you will come up with all the same chord types that occur in the major scale, only, in different places. I'm not sure, however, if you want to refer to the derived chords as "Dorian" or "Locrian" chords. For example, in the Dorian mode, I would see it as a minor seventh on the first degree, a minor seventh on the second degree, a major seventh on the third degree, a dominant seventh on the fourth degree, a minor seventh on the fifth degree, a minor seventh/flat five, or half diminished, on the sixth degree, and a major seventh on the seventh degree.I hope this helps.Mewman

[mazz]

Ultimately the goal, as I see it, is to not think chord to chord or scale to scale but rather to see a series of shifting key centers. The key centers could exhibit any type of modality and in fact, could shift modalities quite radically and still be continually referring back to the home key.Master improvisers (Herbie Hancock being the guru of this, IMO) do this all the time. They have a very high level overview of the piece as it's going by and are manipulating the modalites while still maintaining the base key center. When you factor in equal temperament and all the common tones, it becomes clear that all 12 notes of the chromatic equal tempered scale are "legal", some are more suited to a particular key and mode at any time but all are available. Herbie Hancock is a master manipulator of this material and it always sounds like he knows exactly where he is harmonically, no matter how far astray he may go modally.All modes are not based on scales but, rather, are based on the overtone series. Deriving them from a major scale is a convenient way to discuss them but, ultimately, they are mathematical constructs shoehorned into equal temperament for our modulating pleasure.Cheers!Mazz

[mojobone]

I always thought of that as an Ornette Coleman thing; any note is the right note if it's the note you mean; it's all about playing with intention. As for me, when I'm improvising, truly improvising, I'm not thinking of scales or the names of the notes, I think only of the sounds of the notes; nomenclature doesn't come into it. I try to get out of the way and let the music move my fingers.

[stephen]

Don't get me wrong, I'm was just pondering the possibilities of the substitution and Modal Interchange (borrowing from the other diatonic scales minor etc). I'm just saying that you can have a V7/V in the key of C this chord would be D7. This chord would receive a Mixolydian mode as it is a dominant chord even thought it does not belong to the key of C major. The chord associated with this would be a straight D7 chord. However a V7/II in C major would be A7 and the scale associated with this is a Mixolydian b13 etc etc. So my point was why can there be a II/III in C major this would be F# (as this would be the Dorian of E) the root chord of this scale would be F#m7b5 and the scale would have to be appropriately named (don't know how to named it just yet). That's all I was saying/asking.You have scales called Mixolydian b9 b13 and Lydian Augmented etc so why can therte be a II/something? Not necessarily the chord but a scale with all its chord tones... Think I'm rambling now so I stop...

[mazz]

I agree. The study is only the preparation of the ground. The improvising moment is where the study and the inspiration meet. All the knowledge doesn't get thrown out the window, it just provides a much stronger infrastructure for a more beautiful experience.If I want to run a marathon, I have to train for it.

[geo]

Modes..... one day!!Geo