Writing Hit Songs - Myths

[liamkelly]

Quote:I said that listening to the radio can prove right there that great stories and fantastic imagery are not always needed to reach greatness in a song. I have to stand by that.Fair statement, Horacejesse. Marketing being the way it is these days many radio-friendly songs are specifically directed. And many (if not most) radio listeners are not up to the complex, detailed and very clever lyrical delivery of current country music. Mainly because they're too young (in the non country genres) IMHO.Quote: Other than country, it is true for almost everything else. Most hit songs other than country do no have great imagery or story lines.Depends what you mean by great imagery. There have been many non-country, radio-friendly hits with great imagery, haven't there? Again, depends what you mean by great imagery.Liam

[horacejesse]

I am waiting to catch hell for saying that most hit songs (other than country) do not have outstanding imagery or story lines. IMO this is true, and I base it on listening, not faith or predjudice.Bear in mind that I did not say "you should not try to write songs with great imagery or comprehensible story lines." You should try to do this, even though most hit songs show no evidence of it.Did I say, "This means they are crappy songs?" Don't even think about it.Obviously, there is something else about these songs which is very compelling. Andreh thinks it is a hidden form perhaps. I think think it is ye old sonic quality which draws people in, a very nebulous term, I am sure you all agree.I heard a mowtown song in the sandwich shop (cannot even remember a word of it.). But a giant Tom-tom was striking two and four. Everytime it did, my knees buckled, which is, of course, a lot of buckling. That is what I remebered and what captivated me, not imagery or storyline.We are constantly told how important the lyrics are, and I do not disgrree with that, but I have my own take on it. Lyrics are so important because they need to stay out of the way of enjoying the song. Many of the hits I hear, that is the best thing you can say about the lyrics: "they stayed out of the way."Again I am not saying that lyrics are never the most important thing about a hit. Sometimes they are, but in my opinion, usually not, other than that they stay the heck out of the way. Even without outstanding imagery or story lines, the lyrics can still be the most important element. But it is my opinion they are usually not.

[vicky]

"try not ...do...."Yodaciscokidd...I'm hearing you....funny, people play and compose like their personality...Quote:Many of the working poor do not take advantage of the education they are afforded regardless of the quality. I went to school with some of these knuckleheads that would rather party their life away than get themselves into their books.....and didn't get the chance to have the will to write a hit song, either....vtbp

[edteja]

To get back to the original post--I have to say that I have read this book. Twice, in fact. I have also tried many of his approaches. Some seem to produce useful results and some I am dubious about.Fortunately, most of this thread, interesting as it is, really doesn't begin to debate the main points of the author's departures from conventional song writing. We'd need a whole new forum for that. It is an interesting book and requires a very open mind to enjoy. I found it challenging. That is not to say that I agree or even recommend all its points. But if you are interested in theories of song writing--not just the ones commonly espoused, this is a must read. If not... skip it and stick to the better known books.

[liamkelly]

Quote:Quote:To me, it's just not really all that black and white.Quote:I agree that there are many black and white issues, when it comes to writing great songs. I hadn't suggested otherwise.

[Casey H]

HiI have to apologize because I haven't been able to keep up with all the posts on this thread.... (Damn day job!)The way I see it is it's a matter of simple probability. Somewhere out there someone went for a job interview, didn't dress or smell so good, but got the job anyway. That doesn't make it the recommended way to go... The better you are at writing songs, the better your odds of commercial success. What is "better"? You could make the argument that "better" is hard to define but I think some things are universally accepted: Catchy hook, lyrics that people can relate to, good imagery, etc... So, if you study the craft to master those things, you've increased the probability.... Plain and simple, in my book.There is nothing wrong with writing for "art", for your own pleasure or therapy, doing it 'your way', etc. If you make the choice, then IMHO it's not fair to complain. I readily admit I write some songs that may not be overly commercially marketable. For some of those, I may chose not to change them. But I won't complain, curse the industry, what's on the radio, rag on critque-ers, etc.Probability... like hitting or sticking in blackjack... Casey

[linziellen]

Guys and Gals, I might not know what I'm talking about "yet" but...this is an amazing thread and I do think I know why (no sick bags, this is not me trying to score brownie points) it's YOU guys - all building a huge wall, out of some very solid, well traveled bricks.I can't help but wonder where this thread is going to go but it's brilliant to see you all interact. I'm trying my damned hardest to fathom where I might fit in here but I figure we all have different goals, different ideas of hit songs, different reasons for doing what we do.It half scares me when I read all the comments about writing that "hit" song and what it entails, surely it's too hard to put a finger on? Guess that's what keeps bringing me back here. Personally I'm driven by something that seems to be out of my hands but learning to control the craft is so rewarding. I hear "PERSEVERANCE" all the while I write, read, listen and repeat.Thanks, just wanted to lower the tone

[jchitty]

Quote:HiI have to apologize because I haven't been able to keep up with all the posts on this thread.... (Damn day job!)The way I see it is it's a matter of simple probability. Somewhere out there someone went for a job interview, didn't dress or smell so good, but got the job anyway. That doesn't make it the recommended way to go... The better you are at writing songs, the better your odds of commercial success. What is "better"? You could make the argument that "better" is hard to define but I think some things are universally accepted: Catchy hook, lyrics that people can relate to, good imagery, etc... So, if you study the craft to master those things, you've increased the probability.... Plain and simple, in my book.There is nothing wrong with writing for "art", for your own pleasure or therapy, doing it 'your way', etc. If you make the choice, then IMHO it's not fair to complain. I readily admit I write some songs that may not be overly commercially marketable. For some of those, I may chose not to change them. But I won't complain, curse the industry, what's on the radio, rag on critque-ers, etc.Probability... like hitting or sticking in blackjack... Casey Holy Mother of....Glenn's one helluva a gardener....this thread has six pages in just two days!You summed up my thinking about songwriting, Case. It's the luck of the draw sometimes. (but not all the time people, hehe) Keep creating those darts (in the form of songs) and maybe one day, you'll hit a target. Sorry, mixed metaphors there, hehe.

[jchitty]

Quote:Guys and Gals, I might not know what I'm talking about "yet" but...this is an amazing thread and I do think I know why (no sick bags, this is not me trying to score brownie points) it's YOU guys - all building a huge wall, out of some very solid, well traveled bricks.I can't help but wonder where this thread is going to go but it's brilliant to see you all interact. I'm trying my damned hardest to fathom where I might fit in here but I figure we all have different goals, different ideas of hit songs, different reasons for doing what we do.It half scares me when I read all the comments about writing that "hit" song and what it entails, surely it's too hard to put a finger on? Guess that's what keeps bringing me back here. Personally I'm driven by something that seems to be out of my hands but learning to control the craft is so rewarding. I hear "PERSEVERANCE" all the while I write, read, listen and repeat.Thanks, just wanted to lower the tone Really good thoughts, Lindsey. All these folks here are very kind....there are not a lot of boards like this out in cyberspace. You fit in just fine as you are a sweet and very intelligent person!

[ibanez468]

Like I said 6 pages ago, "Uh-oh! I feel a debate brewing!"