Writing Hit Songs - Myths

[andreh]

Quote:Quote:That is a brilliant analogy! Mind if I borrow it? The funny thing about many people who complain about not wanting to follow "commercial" music conventions is that most of their music is not nearly as exciting to others as it is to themselves. There's a reason popular music is popular (even if it does often reflect the lowest common denominator...which, by no small coincidence, makes up the masses).AndréI disagree, I have a history with a bunch of returns where the screener enjoyed my off target submission. You've got powerful ideas with the potential to have a huge emotional impact for listeners. If i may make a suggestion: I think you might be undercutting the inherent strength of this song by tackling two huge themes - personal freedom and society's injustices. Consider choosing one of these (loss of personal freedom through addiction to drugs, money, love OR loss of control over the integrity of our lives and our environment). Home in on that and drive it home for your listeners. This is of course from a return.I know it wasn't directed at me but I felt compelled to answer that statement... there's tons of exciting music (a lot made by members of this forum) that has no commercial viability... GeoGeo-I think you are in the minority (I am inspired by much of your music), but even the example you give seems to emphasize my point. You wrote the song for yourself without any commercial objectives in mind [that's my assumption based on your use of it in this example], and the listener (the screener, in this case), says it has "potential to have a huge emotional impact for listeners."Perhaps if you'd written the song with the listener (or the market) in mind, the suggestions the screener makes would've been addressed before you submitted the song...and its "potential" impact would've been just plain impact! André

[andreh]

Quote:To me, it's just not really all that black and white.Quote:I agree that there are many black and white issues, when it comes to writing great songs. I hadn't suggested otherwise.

[vicky]

It's kind of strange....I agree with alot of this, but I was always taught 1. to trust the music, and 2. if you really 'happening' you'll be found....I respect everyone's opinion.....and I'm sure my 1 and 2 may seem simplistic, but it has worked for me so far....Maybe I'm the only one that doesn't really mind if I never write a "hit" song (even though I have 50 or more years to change that)...there are so many ways to succeed in this industry....I think emulating is not really what is looked for in an artist or a hit song...but that works for what we're doing here with library music....if you want a hit...be ahead of the curve....if you're not searching the underground for influences you'll never be current enough...IMHO...this is the influence that makes 'em come to you...yes..the nuts and bolts need to be together, but that is knowing your craft....I think the point is to write from a perspective that makes 'em come to you.....the industry has proven time and time again that it gobbles up the new, fresh blood....I always know....what music the 'kids' in the warehouse district are flocking to.....I'm on this forum to get better at writing, and learn how to use what I know and enjoy to make more money$$$$...and also for the camaraderie .... love you madly,vtbp

[ciskokidd]

Hey Chits,I enjoyed your responses and agree very much with what you say, especially in the cases of those that through no fault of their own cannot rise above their circumstances.Didn't mean to come off in a Glen Beck sort of way!Thanks for your considered replies!Okay let me put my gloves back on and jump back into the ring of this thread! Cisko

[jchitty]

One thing I'd like to say....I'm not really wanting to write that 'hit' any longer. If I get a library placement, that would be cool! I am in no way that avant guarde artist who thinks that my songs are artsy and great. I do have to write from my heart though...if I try to write a song for others, it will come out sounding wooden and mechanical, but some very talented writers can pull that off. I know that some of my songwriting is good, some of it is average as well. I never consider it to be at the 'great' stage...I haven't developed that far, and I may never develop that far. And when I talk about luck, I just can't help but feel that it does play a role, but if you go back to my original post, you'll see that I also posted about the value of learning from the critiques and hard work as well.I LOVE this board and the inhabitants here. I have LEARNED so much from you people. I've become a better songwriter because of the advice here, and I'm now starting to learn a little on the production end. For anyone who's been following some of my journey here, I've gotten two fowards in the past month....it's because I've been willing to collaborate with other people, and this has helped me greatly. I've learned that I really work best in a team because I'm not so good on the production end. I don't know about TAXI's new brochures, but I hope they tout this message board all they can....it has turned out to be (with the exception of the critiques) the most valuable tool ever for me!And Liam, glad you're HOME again.

[hummingbird]

Yes, this has been a fun discussion, but I have to watch it doesn't take away from the time available to write music IN WHATEVER FORM or FORMLESS manner one might choose, ha ha.

[arkjack]

Luck versus skill? Hmmmm. that is a tough one. You can't get lucky without the skill, and sometimes in many cases some are just born to be stars. So I would say that luck does play a part. I have the fortunate circumstance to have had time to devote to creating and improving my skills. And if I compare my self to other players, writers, performers, etc, I figure that most don't have much more skill than I do or in many cases, less. Some have been more successful because they have devoted more time and energy to the music. So when you take a pool of dedicated skillful individuals, some get luckier than others. I think my luck stinks. Some people get 'lucky' with people falling in love with everything they write and perform. No one has really ever fallen in love with my music. Just not lucky. It is a lot like fishing. You can be the most skillful angler in the world and be right on top of a hot spot full of big hungry fish..... and if you get lucky .... you might just catch one... or even a few.ArkJack

[ciskokidd]

Yes indeed! These boards are an amazing part of TAXI, the amount of very useful advice and information is worth the price of admission ten times over!Quote:One thing I'd like to say....I'm not really wanting to write that 'hit' any longer. If I get a library placement, that would be cool! I am in no way that avant guarde artist who thinks that my songs are artsy and great. I do have to write from my heart though...if I try to write a song for others, it will come out sounding wooden and mechanical, but some very talented writers can pull that off. I know that some of my songwriting is good, some of it is average as well. I never consider it to be at the 'great' stage...I haven't developed that far, and I may never develop that far. And when I talk about luck, I just can't help but feel that it does play a role, but if you go back to my original post, you'll see that I also posted about the value of learning from the critiques and hard work as well.I LOVE this board and the inhabitants here. I have LEARNED so much from you people. I've become a better songwriter because of the advice here, and I'm now starting to learn a little on the production end. For anyone who's been following some of my journey here, I've gotten two fowards in the past month....it's because I've been willing to collaborate with other people, and this has helped me greatly. I've learned that I really work best in a team because I'm not so good on the production end. I don't know about TAXI's new brochures, but I hope they tout this message board all they can....it has turned out to be (with the exception of the critiques) the most valuable tool ever for me!And Liam, glad you're HOME again.

[andreh]

Quote:Quote:Speaking of myths. One of the biggest to me is that a hit song has to tell a story.Good point...different genres require different lyrical and musical approaches to work with their listeners.Quote:But the existence of even two mega songs both of which defy the common myths, may mean that being too formulaic could make you overlook a part of the creative spectrum those at the top are not overlooking. I disagree. Even if some "myths" were defied by a few mega hits, there was still a formula to them that made them so desirable and satisfying to listen to.André Quote:Andreh,Not sure what you are disagreeing with. I never said anything about any song not having a form. I said that listening to the radio can prove right there that great stories and fantastic imagery are not always needed to reach greatness in a song. I have to stand by that.You said those songs still had a form. I am not even disagreeing with that. But actually how do you know unless you are familiar with the two pieces? You are operating on faith the way Newton did when he believed that mathematical patterns would lead him to the truth.C'mon, all songs have a form. What is your point?And it really is not just a few hits that lack vivid imagery and solid story lines. Other than country, it is true for almost everything else. Most hit songs other than country do no have great imagery or story lines.You want to disagree with something, then get your teeth into this, my boy. I do think it is true. And listening to the radio is the only thing needed to determine if you think it is.Horace-I wasn't referring to your belief that songs don't need to contain great stories or imagery to be great [commerically or artistically]; I agree with that point. In fact, it can often be alienating to a listener when a song is over-complicated by many images or a complex storyline, and in some genres listeners don't really care about anything but the way the music & lyrics "feel."My difference of opinion stems from your thought that formulaic writing may cause one to overlook what makes a song great. Bearing in mind the aspects of the "creative spectrum" that make a song great should be part of the formula, or you're not following the right formula.I doubt if the songs you're referring to will defy my perspective, but I'm open to being proven wrong and learning/growing from the experience. So what are the songs?André

[jchitty]

Quote:Hey Chits,I enjoyed your responses and agree very much with what you say, especially in the cases of those that through no fault of their own cannot rise above their circumstances.Didn't mean to come off in a Glen Beck sort of way!Thanks for your considered replies!Okay let me put my gloves back on and jump back into the ring of this thread! CiskoYou have every right to your opinion though, Cisko. You didn't come off like Glen Beck. I really don't mind it when people disagree. It's kind of rare for me to be posting on a thread like this anyway....most of the time, I don't post on threads of this nature. Not because I'm Ms. Goody Two Shoes, just because I get caught up in the other songwriting threads which aren't political, etc. I just think that people have formed opinions and no amount of discourse can change things. But as Steve G. pointed out, it does give people food for thought.