When is a song "great"?

[ggalen]

Have you ever wondered about that elusive adjective: "great", as applied to a song?(Those of you who know my posts know that I enjoy thinking about the psychology of things, and of the music business. I just enjoy exploring how we humans 'work', especially when it comes to something as powerful and universal as music.)Thought #1Take one of your favorite artists. At one of their concerts, do you typically like every song? What percentage do you like?I'll find myself grooving to one tune, while the person next to me might be quietly listening, but is not particularly moved by that specific song.But on the next song, they might be grinning and bouncing in their seat, while my mind wanders.Is it possible to write a song that the majority of listeners love and would call "great"?I'd say rarely.I'd say it is next to impossible to write a song that is rated "great" by more than 50% of any RANDOM set of listeners who do like music in general.What do you think? Thought #2Another thing: we are typically instructed that anything less than 'great' need not even be submitted: "great vocals required", "great lyrics needed", "must have great production", "only great performances, please".Yet clearly many of the things we hear in commercial music, films, and other commercial uses are not great. They are just "good," or perhaps "solid but uninspired". And yet paradoxically, someone thought they were "great" when they were submitted, and paid money for them.But were they really? Or were they simply "better than average"?

[kevinmathie]

Great thoughts. I'd say you'll know that you've written a great song when, in thirty years, the next generation's equivelent to Michael Feinstein does a documentary of The Great American Songbook and includes your song in it! OK, I'm being a bit cynically facetious. I don't have an answer, but you've definitely got me pondering...

[mazz]

One man's "great" is another man's "solid but uninspired". That's from a listener's perspective.The composer/writer's great might be "I've turned this song/piece around and around and it's as perfect as it can be" or "This popped out in 30 minutes, fully formed and perfect" or anything in between.After that, it's up to the screener/client/audience member/history to determine "great". What's your benchmark and how does it meet up with theirs? Or does it? Or does it matter?If one is trying to break in to the business, it's probably a good idea to know what is "generally" considered great and match, or better yet, beat it. If one is established, there's a bit more leeway (at least there used to be) since your name will guarantee at least a certain amount of sales, sound un-heard.IMO it's an unanswerable question because there's no way of knowing ahead of time how something will be perceived. Take Martin's example of the same song getting returned for one listing and getting all 10s and forwarded for another. Some layperson might consider that insanity but the concept of "great" is a moving target that changes with time and generations and is only valid in "hindsight" by the person saying it's great at the time they said it!!Great thread! Mazz

[gendron]

National Anthems tend to be popular among the general population. With each Country believing theirs to be greater than their neighbors... especially in times of war and sport. Quote:Is it possible to write a song that the majority of listeners love and would call "great"?

[ggalen]

Mazz,Lots to think about in what you said. I'll say more in a moment, but first...here's another phenomenon I recently got the "AHA Moment" about. When I am writing a song on a day when I am not as "into" my musical style, I may judge a song as not worth keeping because it just isn't "moving me" and I don't feel that tingle.But maybe it isn't the song's problem at all! Maybe it's my internal mental state that's off and it can't recognize the great potential in the tune!It's Glenn's Theory Of Musical Relativity: is your train starting to move, or is the train on the next track starting to move??? i.e. Is the song bad, or is it your mood and judgment today?? Mazz, you bring up a great point about Martin and his 10s. It is a moving target, and we all play the percentages, I guess.I think you are absolutely spot on about the definition of "great" changing. And he who pays the piper calls the tune, so the stuff we write for listings must be geared toward the taste of the buyer.When the buyer feels that it's "great", they write a check, and then we feel pretty great as well. BUT...we would be wise to remember that the opinion of the guy writing the checks is not particularly special in the overall scheme of things. In fact, it may be so skewed that he/she pays well for things that will be considered crap 20 years from now...and rejects things that would have become classics!

[gendron]

Many (most) of the songs you hear in commercial markets aren't the result of taxi forwards. But rather a product of the "who you know" business. So the argument might actually be... are taxi's standards/expectations greater than the average A&R ? If so. Why?Quote:Thought #2Another thing: we are typically instructed that anything less than 'great' need not even be submitted: "great vocals required", "great lyrics needed", "must have great production", "only great performances, please".Yet clearly many of the things we hear in commercial music, films, and other commercial uses are not great. They are just "good," or perhaps "solid but uninspired". And yet paradoxically, someone thought they were "great" when they were submitted, and paid money for them.But were they really? Or were they simply "better than average"?

[ggalen]

Silence wrote: "National Anthems tend to be popular among the general population"Silence,Now that's interesting, isn't it? A person's National Anthem is wrapped up with lots of emotion and identity and pride...which gets transferred to the song. Plus, the familiarity that comes with hearing the tune 1,000 times in your life tends to make you like it, I think.

[gendron]

Sounds good to me. Quote:Silence wrote: "National Anthems tend to be popular among the general population"Silence,Now that's interesting, isn't it? A person's National Anthem is wrapped up with lots of emotion and identity and pride...which gets transferred to the song. Plus, the familiarity that comes with hearing the tune 1,000 times in your life tends to make you like it, I think.

[squidlips]

Quote:When I am writing a song on a day when I am not as "into" my musical style, I may judge a song as not worth keeping because it just isn't "moving me" and I don't feel that tingle.But maybe it isn't the song's problem at all! Maybe it's my internal mental state that's off and it can't recognize the great potential in the tune!This is a good point. I've also found that I will judge my music either while I'm writing it or right after I've finished it in tandem with my state of mind at that time. A day or two (possibly a week or two or even a year later), I'll view it differently, when I'm in a different place.Sometimes "great" is a matter of timing as well as subjective opinion.

[Pinkstar]

I know for sure that a great song to ME is a song I can't stand; yet sing along to and tap my foot to. I do agree with Matt, one person might love a tune while another one totally doesn't get it. (That's me and my boyfriend, lol) I get chills and could cry listening to certain tune while he's like..."I don't get it" and there are songs he thinks are the greatest songs ever where I just shake my head and think that's the worst song ever.Even during the A&R Panel, they disagreed a lot. It makes perfect sense, we all have different opinions and taste but a great song is a song everyone likes even if they can't stand it. (if that makes any sense to you). I can't stand Billy Corgans voice, yet I like the Smashing Pumpkins. For my own music, the song is complete when I get chills singing it and listening back to it. JVB