Reviewing lyrics without music

[Casey H]

Hi esteemed regulars and very welcome newbies and oldbies...What is your opinion regarding reviewing lyrics without music? For a long time, I wouldn't do it because I think you have to hear a song in it's entire context. Many things depend so much on the music. For example, a killer chorus can quickly (IMHO) overshadow some cliche lines in the verses. I've cited before, "Don't Speak" by No Doubt as an example... The song starts with: You and me Used to be together Every day together always I really feel That I'm losing my best friend I can't believe This could be the end Now, if I read this as lyric only, would I have marked it up like a High School English teacher, with red circles and "cliche" by the "friend/end" thing?IMHO, when your EARS get to the pre-chorus and chorus of this song, you are totally hooked and couldn't care less about that possible cliche in the first verse.So, what are your thoughts on reviewing lyrics without music? Casey

[edteja]

I think there are two aspects to this, Casey. One is that lyrics can be standalone. In getting help clarifying meaning, etc, the critiques can be helpful. But lyrics often change when applied to music.To make an analogy, I can edit a page of prose text for clarity, style, and so on, but not for how it fits in a larger context, such as a story. So I think critiquing lyrics, as we have seen on the forum, can strengthen them. Whether they function appropriately (or even well) in a song is another matter.

[Casey H]

Quote:I think there are two aspects to this, Casey. One is that lyrics can be standalone. In getting help clarifying meaning, etc, the critiques can be helpful. But lyrics often change when applied to music.To make an analogy, I can edit a page of prose text for clarity, style, and so on, but not for how it fits in a larger context, such as a story. So I think critiquing lyrics, as we have seen on the forum, can strengthen them. Whether they function appropriately (or even well) in a song is another matter. I've read a few times that song lyric and poetry are not the same thing. I think I can tell what looks like very bad or very good lyrics from only reading, but for everything in-between, it's hard for me to say. As often said here on this forum, the standard for non-performing songwriters is higher than for performers, so our lyrics usually need to be a good read. A funny aside ... I have a song called Rainy Tuesday, one of my early songs. It has a good rockin' 60's sound and is catchy... However, the lyrics don't really tell a good story ( I thought I was John Lennon in the late 60's when I wrote it ) and, for that reason, it has been (rightly so) ripped apart in pro-critiques. This morning, a publisher emailed me saying he/she liked that song with the "pills" in it... It was Rainy Tuesday, he/she was referring to... Even funnier ... I spent the money once to change the line that referred to the pills because I was afraid that 'drug' reference would make it less marketable. CaseyPS (Shameless self-promotion of Rainy Tuesday)Click on the song title and scroll down to read the lyrics.http://www.broadjam.com/transmit/transm ... yhgbndsq=1

[arkjack]

I think lyrics are ok as a read, but there is definitely a difference bettween lyric and a song. One of the habits I have a hard time breaking is when the cadence and sylables of the lyric to my ears fall "perfectly". I guess as they say in the pocket.... the right word on the right downbeat of the drums followed by another word that fits in with the backbeats of the guitar fills at the end of the line..... Part of that is also how it lends itself to musical interpretation by the vocalist... take a single line...."you don't love me" there are several combinations of rhythms that those words can be sung to... all whole notes, half quarter, dotted eights on the backbeat....and a zillion combinations thereof. sometimes that can make a big difference in the power of the whole song.... JMHOArkJack

[Casey H]

Quote:I think lyrics are ok as a read, but there is definitely a difference bettween lyric and a song. One of the habits I have a hard time breaking is when the cadence and sylables of the lyric to my ears fall "perfectly". I guess as they say in the pocket.... the right word on the right downbeat of the drums followed by another word that fits in with the backbeats of the guitar fills at the end of the line..... Part of that is also how it lends itself to musical interpretation by the vocalist... take a single line...."you don't love me" there are several combinations of rhythms that those words can be sung to... all whole notes, half quarter, dotted eights on the backbeat....and a zillion combinations thereof. sometimes that can make a big difference in the power of the whole song.... JMHOArkJacke.g. When Olivia Newton-John sang "I Honestly Love You", the emotion in her vocal made that a very non-cliche line.

[horacejesse]

It makes about as much sense as reviewing Van Gogh from a black and white photograph. How much sense does A Starry Night make in black and white. How well can you review that painting from a black and white photograph?The words in poetry carry their own cadence. Song lyrics don't do this generally. The music determines the cadence. The best song lyrics are never as good as the best poetry when standing alone. Words that seem pretty trite when heard alone can make you cry once the music is added.One would never call Bob Dylan "a hell of a poet" from reading his lyrics. But add the music and we see that he is, but only when the music is there too.Put simply, I don't think reviewing lyrics without the music has any value at all, as in zero.

[edteja]

I still suggest that there is value in critiquing lyrics along. For instance, if I present a stanza (verse) and say, "I am trying to say such and such, do these words convey that?" then I can get good feedback that says, "well to me, this is confusing," or "it sounds stilited". I agree that if I dump a song worth with no reference and say, "do you like my lyrics?" then it is useless. By the way, what do you think of my hat?

[Casey H]

I think it has value, but it is limited. You can weed out really bad things, for example (people here have helped that way) confusing or lack of story lines, bad rhymes, etc... And, for pitching to the "Nashville" standard, it's needed... But, as I said, FOR ME as the giver or receiver, I'm not sure how effective it is for stuff that's in the middle somewhere. Got to go... I think I saw Meagan crying again... hee hee... Casey

[matto]

I think it all depends on the circumstance and what somebody is trying to "get" from the critique.I someone wanted my opinion about whether a song might be a good candidate for film/tv placements, reviewing the lyric by itself would be useless in about 90% of all cases.On the other extreme, if the song was to be pitched to high level Nashville opportunities, I think it would be possible to make a determination from the lyric alone in about 90% of the cases about whether that song might have a shot...Everything else falls somewhere in between those extremes IMO.The No Doubt song is an excellent example of a song where looking at the lyric on it's own doesn't work...(unless you know the back story of the song...then that verse lyric becomes strangely powerful...)

[og]

The late Townes Van Zandt said that it had to work as a poem first, before he would make it a song. I find that a very difficult exercise...