Working with another writer

[squids]

I dunno, I tend to think along the lines of 'the simpler, the betta'.......work-for-hire or 50/50 cowrite. Tried the whole 'they did lyrics, I did music' approach and while that worked really well on the last album, I wouldn't do it again, mainly cuz my new cowriters and I have a more professional relationship. My past cowriters were good friends and we have a more emotional connection that transcends contracts and such. Not always the best plan for many people; contracts aren't there to make us feel bound, they're there to protect us.An example would be something like this: Somebody needs me to drop some voice stuff on their bed tracks. No production or anything, jes melody lines and backups, etc. Simple! Either they pay me an hourly wage and I sign off on it (i.e., I sign off on a master of my stuff so it's all theirs) or they offer me a 50/50 cowrite. I'd do the whole 'I'll do this for you if you do this for me lata on' but time began to be a factor on my end and I really loathe putting people on hold. So I'm generally up front about it now, either pay-for-play or a cowrite. I hated it at first. I mean, I really like a ton of people on these forums and of course, I'd like them to think well of me and talking about this stuff jes seemed cold-blooded to me but after signing my first contract at 14, I'm kinda over it now. Besides how good is it if I agree to do something and then not be able to follow through because I've had to take other jobs that're paying me cash to keep me going? It's best to be honest not only about what you'll accept for your services but what you're willing to pay for theirs. Gives everyone a chance at the outset to decide if this is something they're interested in with no hurt feelings if it isn't what either of you want. We'd all love to be professional and I think mostly we are but certainly, we take pride in our work and it does hurt a bit at first to be turned down or to find that it isn't working out.So the next thing is scheduling. What kind of time are we talking about? I'm fortunate that my cowriters have been understanding about a sudden change of scheduling in my life (and my classes) and have been very patient and are waiting (even as I take time away from studying to write this! Ack!). I don't know if I could say the same about anyone else. So I'm very careful about who I cowrite with. Things can happen in anyone's life at any time so you definitely want someone who's either really good and you can maybe put up with some impatience issues or they're really great to work with and between the two of you, you can come up with something great together. I try to avoid people with control issues big time, it's jes a pet peeve of mine. I think most of my cowriters know this about me; if they don't, they're about to find out, lol. I love it when people are concerned about quality. I don't love it when being anal interferes with creativity. Each of us has our own lil quirks so it's best to know yours. That way you can be as up front as possible.I believe if you make an agreement with someone to do something and for some reason, it doesn't work out, you both should be allowed to take your tune/lyrics and shop them elsewhere. I mean, what if you agreed to do a cowrite with someone. You come up with lyrics but they've been sitting on them for six months now and you know they're not gonna have time/energy/whatever to finish the job. Is it fair to you to have to let go of that song? Nope. But here again, this is where being careful about who you cowrite with comes in really handy. If you've got a good working relationship, you'll feel more comfortable being able to say "well, look, it's been six months or whatever, nothin's happened. We've talked about this before. I'd like to option out, take my words elsewhere." If they're good joes, they'll let it go and wish you well. And it pays off too. I know of one really great guy who I absolutely adore (he knows who he is) who wrote some great music for some of chits' lyrics. I wanted those lyrics bad, bad, bad and was jes too slow to snag them (he's quicker on the draw than me). But after he produced his shot at it and they watched it try its wings, he graciously let me have a shot at it too, now giving chits a double shot at it, two different slants on the same lyrics. In exchange, I got another cowriter (cuz he da man) and we're both challenging each other to go way outside our usual boundaries. It's costing us time and patience but it's gonna be so worth it in the long run. A good deal, all around, imho. (thanks Steve D!).Anyway, sorry for the long post. Sorry!

[cameron]

Great thread. It's been years since I've written with anyone else and I've often wondered how you deal with the inevitable situation when one isn't that crazy about the other's contribution. Obviously you've got to work with someone who is able to check their ego at the door, but it seems songs are like chiildren, and sometimes even reasonable people think their own can do no wrong while other people's annoy the hell of of them. How do you deal with that?Cameron

[milfus]

nah, if you are both professional, then one is accomodating, and the other is constructive, so you go in expecting to have to change your contributions, and whoever doesnt like them gives you options or tries to help with the changes, if it is consistantly not vibing, then its time to dissolve the collab, but even that, if done nicely, just comes to a difference in style, and can actually feel like a relief to both, with no hard feelings.

[hummingbird]

Jun 10, 2008, 9:21pm, cameron wrote:Great thread. It's been years since I've written with anyone else and I've often wondered how you deal with the inevitable situation when one isn't that crazy about the other's contribution. Obviously you've got to work with someone who is able to check their ego at the door, but it seems songs are like chiildren, and sometimes even reasonable people think their own can do no wrong while other people's annoy the hell of of them. How do you deal with that?CameronI deal with this by us agreeing from the very beginning that nothing is written in stone and that we both have to agree in order for a change to take place. That means that someone has to compromise. For the sake of the song. If I got into a situation where we both felt the opposite about something and we couldn't figure it out, I'd recommend getting professional feedback to assist us in making the right choices. To me, it's not about 'mine' and 'yours', it's about commercial viability. In other words, the song is more important than my ego & vice versea.

[aimusic]

Jun 10, 2008, 5:14pm, devin wrote:P.S. Both Brad and I are really laid back, but professional, collaborators. He's currently working on a song for me that could fall in the "a, b, c" categories above. I did a song 3 years ago in a pop style, but he's trying to funk it up as a dance tune. We're going to wait until he's done his proposal for the new song before picking a way to compensate him (and heck, he could do such an amazing job that his version is totally unique, and we'd be talking about a song split instead...we're both open!).I think in trying out a new collaborator, starting slow is the best policy. If Brad and I nail this (straight forward) collab, then we might grab a blank piece of paper and create something out of nothing in the future.I keep reminding myself..."the more unknowns in the song, the more places to get lost". Give your new collaborator a fighting chance by agreeing on a smaller project...better chance of success. If you have a specific idea Linzi, I'd be very open to hear it and see if I can help, btw.HIER HIER!!!!And don't forget how cool Brad is.... hahahahahaha just kidding....

[devin]

I like Squids.But besides just my physical affection, what she wrote is good too!I've found that as my writing gets better, so do my collaborators, and so do the relationships. I like how Squids can now say "50/50 or give me cash" (OK, I'm massively simplifying...but I'm at work on lunch, so I don't have too much free time LOL ). I would to respond to Squids, though, that I'm sure it took a lot of trial and error and effort for her to get to that point...it did for me...and I think we all need to go through that as we get better.Basically, let's keep collaborating any way we can, and get better. It would be really nice to be a good enough songwriter (with good enough funds to buy help when you need it)...but if you're not there yet, then keep hooking up with folks to get your stuff to the next level no matter what. The alternative is to stop trying.And Hummingbird has a great idea...professional feedback. I don't know how many times I wanted to take a stubborn co-writer and say "OK, let's take this to good idea music court, and see who's right!".Of course, my attitude at the time wasn't the best...but I DID have the better verse, dangit!!!I think this forum is a great place to ask for advice and opinion...although we're all so busy, the feedback on any given day may be overwhelmingly complete, or totally sparse.We should get treats every time we give someone a good idea (or a much needed reality check).

[milfus]

for my treats, i want girl scout cookieson a side note, its so crazy actually collabing with musicians, I am so used to know nothing rappers (not saying all rappers know nothing about music, just most of the ones I worked with, and they admitted it) So i don't have to argue about why a section needs to be revamped, cause its not in key, and other equally frustrating things. It is like a vacation.

[squids]

Yeah but when you're working with a lyricist (for example), and they don't wanna do a rewrite......well, who can blame them? If you dint want the song, you wouldn't have asked for it, right? It had appeal already but now you wanna do a major rewrite on it? That doesn't make sense and I could see how a lyricist would be less inclined to wanna do that. On the other hand, I say to my cowriters up front......if I have to change a lil something to make it fit the melody line, is this okay? It's their baby, they don't want someone disfiguring it. Who would? On the other hand, though......singing ain't writin' and there're things you gotta do to make the translation from the paper to the voice.In the end, it's about the work. What sounds best. It's not about countin' sacrfice but what's gonna make it sell (as bird said). And it seems like everyone sacrifices, in the end, to make it betta than it woulda been if you'd done it on your own. If it doesn't sound betta, six months lata when you're over the lil nicks and cuts of collab'ing (heh), then it's clear you need to find another collaborator or jes DIY.P.S. Awww, I like you too Devin, you're sweet. And yes, it took a lot of inner resolve and time to get here to say these things to you, in more ways than one. And you're quite right when you say we all hafta go through it, make our own way and get there in our own time.

[cameron]

I think we all like Squids, and she sings like nobody's business. That's why the poor woman is buried with all the stuff we've all sent her. Oh yes... and btw Squids, I'll be transposing my piano part tonight for you.Cameron

[squids]

Hey Cam,I appreciate that. I've been squeaking along with you on your version and it's a lil bit up there but doable. If we can jeeees adjust jes a bit on it, that should do it. Still think you sound like Willie, yay!I like you too. And you wrote a mean lyric fo yo mama. I know she'd be proud. It's lovely.