Working with another writer

[Mark Kaufman]

I never ever ever ever ever wanted to work with lyricists in the way it seems to go. I used to look for someone who could write lyrics to my music and melody. Not many lyricists can do that, nor are most even willing to try...they feel they are being too constricted. And I used to think I'd never turn the tables and try to make music fit to someone's words.But now, I find the challenge exhilarating, and I've been able to make it work. I've worked on half a dozen songs by lyricists in the past few months, and I ended up changing nothing. Unfortunately, that's making me a little too popular with lyricists now... But in general, I'm with Steve. They must be willing to bend...and so far, every lyricist I've worked with has demonstrated that willingness...which makes me more determined to make their vision work...

[jchitty]

Jun 12, 2008, 11:56am, sgs4u wrote:I look for someone that isn't scared to argue, and is also willing to lose an argument, to further the relationship and or song. That's how I am. I'm done working with writers who have resistance to changing lyrics. Sometimes people send me lyrics, and I work on creating a song with them. If they are resistant to changing lyrics, there is NO point to continuing. But I'm getting to be a hard-ass about it, 'cause I only have so much time, and nothing is worth doing to me, unless I enjoy the relationship, as much as the song. Lyrics, are NOT songs. They never will be, until someone cooperates to make a song out of it. I don't mind some conflict provided it's useful to the songwriting process. McCartney and Lennon were constantly in conflict but they still wrote great songs because one balanced the strengths and weakness of the other. But there comes a point when conflict becomes useless and doesn't add to the process anymore, it just gums up the works. When it just becomes pointless wheel spinning and nothing is getting done, it's time to call it quits.

[milfus]

yeah, I am with steve, if I think something isnt going to fly well, I will bow out for the sake of someone more compatible/with a better vision. Not in a judgemental way, just no point mucking up a song with a different vision if I dont think the end result will be as good as if someone who shared that vision got ahold of it. Cause after all you know, its about song quality, a lot of people lose sight of that some time (myself included) just from being too close to the work. The trick with that is every songwriter/producer has there own specific definition of quality, which can lead to fun times where both people are SURE that they have the better version, so I tend to walk right then if I don't see a compromise, before theres too much emotion for the project.Anymore I am seriously leaning towards entirely new creations on collabs, pre-existing material just tends to make drama, depending on the person, there are a few expception, but yeah, my new rule is "from the ground up or not at all" generally, unless im needed for something specific, or vice versa. That way the focus is on building the song instead of protecting your vision.Don't get me wrong, I am a rounder, music is my meal ticket, but at the same time, so is enjoying what I do, pay vs job quality is a constant factor, so I just do the math as, is the fun worth the pay, and is the pay worth the pain, ya know, it makes for a much happier existance in my experience, and generally, esspecially with people you click with, you can make some money while enjoying yourself.

[jchitty]

Sometimes, when I post lyrics, people PM me behind the scenes, and they want the lyrics to the song. They want to create a melody for it. I'm assuming they like the song enough not to make me want to change it, otherwise, why did they PM me? I'll change a bit of it for them, but because of the time element, I ain't rewriting a whole song....if you want the lyrics, you take 'em as is, or you're welcome to do rewrites yourselves.Once again, it's not about ego with me...it's about it being so time consuming....it's A LOT of work to write a song, but it's even more work to rewrite whole songs. I've had some people want my lyrics and then ask me to rewrite the whole dang song. (not our dear Steve of course, hehe)To which I'll say, 'well, you really didn't want my lyrics, didya?" I'm extremely flexible with folks though...I'm a fly by the seat of my pants type, and once you get my lyrics, I just tell you to run with it. Just don't bug me with too many rewrites. My count of songs right now is approaching 150 in three years time(I average a song a week)....here's what I think, write the song, and do the best you can with it....remain prolific and strive for quality, but don't get bogged down in quagmires and nitpickin' 'coz you'll shoot yourself in the foot eventually.

[Casey H]

A lot of good points made... Chits- you brought up something that is not just about co-writing, but writing in general. Most of us are resistant to changing something we've become "married to"... Once a writer has been singing a line in their head, it's so hard for them to hear it any other way. This hampers me a lot when I have an older song with good music & and lyrics that don't make it commercially. I just am too married to what I've been singing for so long. You'll find this is a problem for many of us when we get critiques that suggest changes/re-writes. We sort of lock up... Casey

[hummingbird]

Asking a lyricist to rewrite lyrics is like asking a musician to change the melody. Since I am a fairly good lyricist, I think it's important to figure out the lyric before the music writing starts. Assuming we're starting from scratch. Not that there can't be a tweak here and there. But the structure & form & craft of the lyric is going to support the composition of the music, methinks.However, if the music is already written, then it's my job to, with prosody, express the spirit of the music in the composition of the words.a melody without words is an instrumental. A lyric without music is a poem. Together they make song and are equally important.In any case, as I said in my post above, I tend now to work with experienced people who have a vision that compliments mine while still challenging me to think outside the box. I may have to wrestle with myself sometimes over changes, and I assume my co-writer feels the same... but we agree that the commercial viability of the song is paramount. If we can't agree on what that is (and I've never had a problem, really), then we would have to resort to getting feedback from others.

[jchitty]

Jun 12, 2008, 12:44pm, hurowitz wrote:A lot of good points made... Chits- you brought up something that is not just about co-writing, but writing in general. Most of us are resistant to changing something we've become "married to"... Once a writer has been singing a line in their head, it's so hard for them to hear it any other way. This hampers me a lot when I have an older song with good music & and lyrics that don't make it commercially. I just am too married to what I've been singing for so long. You'll find this is a problem for many of us when we get critiques that suggest changes/re-writes. We sort of lock up... CaseyVery true....when a song gets in your head the way you originally created it, it becomes very difficult to rewrite it.Squids and I had a bit of a roadblock with 'Burbs. She wanted me to change the verses, "she's lost her way, and she's lost her balance, except the one on her credit card' and incorporate those lines into the chorus. I didn't think I could do it, it was just so hard for me. She knew I wasn't being resistent because I loved the words they way they were....she just knew I might not be able to think of anything. But Squids has a good way of challenging me (she knows this, hehe) and I got off the phone with her shortly thereafter, and I ended up making that 'credit card' line part of the chorus and delivered Squids a few lines she liked even more. I dunno, maybe I just got lucky. Plus, we got some good chemistry together. Plus, it helps to know that eventually a co-writer will be fairly satisfied with what you send them....if you've got someone really picky, it will produce fruitless results after a while.

[milfus]

see I aggree and disagree with that bird, I do both lyrics and music, and I prefer to start with lyrics, but for specific genre's styles and feels, lyrics and music need prosody according to the genre. however prosody works both ways, If a specific style calls for certain structures, then it puts a hard ship on the music, the same as music can hamper the lyrics by being un accomodating. I am really against this writing to someones best shot, just because it is so limiting, no where else does this model work, you cant build a back half of a car to a front half and just hope, both need to take from the other to make one big cohesive creation. For the good of the whole. prosody is music and lyrics working together, not one working with the other.I guess we are at odds, because if someone had a lyric to try, but I needed to change the melody, I would adjust it and evaluate how it helped or hurt, for the exact same reason you said, music needs words, words need music, its not a 1+1 = 2 situation, you are trying to get both halves to equal 3, and that is the only way to really get there without extreme amounts of luck.

[sgs4u]

I think you might have misunderstood what I was saying Squids. Such is my lot. Whenever I post, I seem to be preconceived as confrontational. I don't like the conflict part either, or especially hanging on to things the way they exist, simply because that's the way it was written. I enjoy people who are willing to discuss/argue their points, or why a thing is written a certain way. To me that's the exchange of feelings that help me uncover the satisfaction and advantages of co-writing. The feeling of being stuck, because someone is unwilling to envision a new creation (the result of what happens when 2 minds cooperate), is what I was referring to. When someone writes a lyric, it isn't a song to me. Nada. Not until there's a melody, and even then, without the whole production thing being complete, there's very little to either sell or promote. Maybe I'm so different that I need to start looking at that a lot more...Jun 12, 2008, 12:04pm, squids wrote:Well, I can see that. You've got a confrontational style and that's an interest point, isn't it? Each of us has a different style and that's a part of the equation as well. If someone's loathe to be confrontational in order to work with you, it'll make them miserable and you too. Right?I dislike conflict in the rewriting part because the creative process to me is already full of conflict.....within ourselves, out into the world using our hands, our software, etc. Why clutter it with more verbal confrontation? But I can see how that would work for lots.Interesting that we're collab'ing on something, lol. We don't email much which I know means you're really reining it in for me. I appreciate that a lot. Jes waitin' on either you or Bill to tell me whazzup.

[hummingbird]

Yeah it's really about writing in general, I think. I just had a consult with Pat Luboff about one of my songs I'm just about ready to demo, and I told her "I want to get Taxi forwards with this song" and she gave me her feedback. I totally see what she's saying... but to change the framework of the song is hard when it's already stuck in your mind. I just keep playing around with it and allowing myself to brainstorm new ideas until something goes "ah".