Working with another writer

[milfus]

Jun 12, 2008, 2:25pm, aubreyz wrote:As I've grown as a writer, I've become less attached to individual ideas, words, melodies, or progressions. They are like Doritos - we'll make more. IMHO co-writing is difficult unless there is an equality between the writers where no single opinion is more valid than agreement. Which, btw, makes the split 50/50 no matter who's doing what. AubI can't agree with you more, its that tortured genius mentality that stuff has to stay exactly that way. If you arent gonna work with someone, why work with someone.

[milfus]

I cant agree with that liam, If a lyricist wants to change music, then you change it with them, until it feels right to them, and you are happy with it, same with the lyrics, the mentality of different sides kills songs, you both want to be on the same side.at the end of the day, both names are on it, it represents both of you, both of you should actively want your name on it, if you cant achieve that, you have no buisiness working with people, cause you dont.

[squids]

Everyone has some excellent thoughts here. I especially liked Aub's point that you wanna write with someone who is equal to or betta than you. The key is to keep peddling faster, not to devolve. When it comes to opinions, respect is absolutely important. Especially if you've got the chops and experience to speak confidently about the song. It's not about ramrodding a project, imho, it's about discussion and the free exchange of ideas. Respect will get you there whereas compassion might not.

[squids]

Jun 12, 2008, 2:32pm, milfus wrote:I cant agree with that liam, If a lyricist wants to change music, then you change it with them, until it feels right to them, and you are happy with it, same with the lyrics, the mentality of different sides kills songs, you both want to be on the same side.at the end of the day, both names are on it, it represents both of you, both of you should actively want your name on it, if you cant achieve that, you have no buisiness working with people, cause you dont.I dunno, milfus......with all due respect, the lyricists I work with either have music available or they've gotta be willing to let me do my thing. I'll consult with them but nobody's gonna put my spin on it betta than I am, otherwise why would they have asked me? So if they say, "well, I hear this in my head" I'll try to be true to it but if I've got a vision that fits their tune, we'll have to discuss it to figure out if there's a compromise. If there isn't one, they gonna hafta trust me at least to hear my version before we give up on it. Writing lyrics isn't writing music and vice versa.

[hummingbird]

Jun 12, 2008, 2:36pm, squids wrote:Everyone has some excellent thoughts here. I especially liked Aub's point that you wanna write with someone who is equal to or betta than you. The key is to keep peddling faster, not to devolve. When it comes to opinions, respect is absolutely important. Especially if you've got the chops and experience to speak confidently about the song. It's not about ramrodding a project, imho, it's about discussion and the free exchange of ideas. Respect will get you there whereas compassion might not.I agree that it's good to write with someone who is "as good as" or "better" than you, for experience. However, someone has to write with people less experienced than they... as surely, the one who is "better" than you is doing? Perhaps they as well would rather work with someone at their level? If we all have that attitude the only people who will write with us are people who are at the same level as us. Personally, I can learn just as much (or perhaps mentor) someone with less experience. Frankly, I think attitude & professionalism & sincere desire to work on craft is more important than "experience".

[liamkelly]

Jun 12, 2008, 2:32pm, milfus wrote:I cant agree with that liam, If a lyricist wants to change music, then you change it with them, until it feels right to them, and you are happy with it, same with the lyrics, the mentality of different sides kills songs, you both want to be on the same side.at the end of the day, both names are on it, it represents both of you, both of you should actively want your name on it, if you cant achieve that, you have no buisiness working with people, cause you dont.Milf No argument here, per se I was trying to make the point (maybe poorly) that in songwriting collabs where one is ostensibly a lyricist and one a musician (given, there may be an overlap... even a significant one sometimes) it is probably handy to give in a bit more to the other's expertise.Granted, each should have some say on the other... but, in my very limited experience , partnerships more often break up because they don't fully understand the skills the other brings to the party than for any other reason.A genuine 2c RespectLiam

[milfus]

yeah no doubt, its just like, I have worked with lyricists by the TONS (mainly a rap producer) and like for melody lines and stuff, they will have an idea and be scared to say somethin cause they cant put it to words, and I mean i will go so far as to actually make them hum it out, transcribe and then we can see how it sounds, i didnt mean you as in you, most times when i say you, i mean a global you, I am really tryna get out of that habit. but I mean ultimately, anyone working on a song with me, is kin to me, I will try my hardest to enable them so as much of them as possible can come through, because I mean just because I am music mainly on a project, and they are lyrics, if I have an idea for lines, or I think something needs work, I jump on it, and if they feel that way about my music, I whole heartedly encourage them to do the same, cause people are not songs, there has to be seperation, and the more perspective and appeal it has, the wider the songs appeal upon completion.How can you honestly expect large groups of people to like a song when you cant even get all the creators to like it, just seems unrealistic to me. I believe true art is its own entity that reflects its creators, if you value your ego or contributions above your song, you are doomed to fail, thats why I decided against pre-concieved notions, because if someone emotionally invests in half a song, they deserve half a song, not budging on it just means you refuse to let it grow into what it should be. Where as say if me and you sat down, and talked out an idea, then both of us planted that seed, we both want it to grow, and we both shape it into what we are both really proud of, instead of insisting half of it has to be a certain shape, theres no synergy you know.

[aubreyz]

Jun 12, 2008, 2:41pm, hummingbird wrote:Jun 12, 2008, 2:36pm, squids wrote:Everyone has some excellent thoughts here. I especially liked Aub's point that you wanna write with someone who is equal to or betta than you. The key is to keep peddling faster, not to devolve. When it comes to opinions, respect is absolutely important. Especially if you've got the chops and experience to speak confidently about the song. It's not about ramrodding a project, imho, it's about discussion and the free exchange of ideas. Respect will get you there whereas compassion might not.I agree that it's good to write with someone who is "as good as" or "better" than you, for experience. However, someone has to write with people less experienced than they... as surely, the one who is "better" than you is doing? Perhaps they as well would rather work with someone at their level? If we all have that attitude the only people who will write with us are people who are at the same level as us. Personally, I can learn just as much (or perhaps mentor) someone with less experience. Frankly, I think attitude & professionalism & sincere desire to work on craft is more important than "experience".To me "better" does not equal experience. I would gladly write with an inexperienced writer who had great ideas, but just to be frank, I'm such a strong personality in a "writing environment" and so very opinionated that I'd probably unintentionally run all over an inexperienced writer in a co-write situation. Mentoring is a whole 'nother ball of wax. There have been many occasions where I've offered assistance to someone and very seldom ask even for a cut.As far as writing for pleasure... yeah, it would be fun and interesting to write with just about anybody. But this is not a hobby anymore. I'm out to write the best songs I can and want to be pushed. So would i have a better chance of writing a great song with a great writer or with someone learning the ropes? Both have value, but IMHO they are apples and oranges when it comes to the "business" of songwriting. As an analogy, i love talking to people who are just learning the production side of things, answering questions and sharing what I might have learned along the way. And while it's true that even in those conversations I've learned a few things, to me it's more valueable to talk with someone who has more experience than me. (which of course means they have to put up with my relative inexperience ).This same attitude applies in all areas. I like to be around people who are more successful than me. Not that I ignore or shun someone who isn't, mentoring is just as important, it's just a different game.That's one reason why I love this forum. There are those who I strive to reach their level and those who I like to think I might help out a bit along the way. But if I'm in a gunfight, give me somebody who at least can shoot as good as me, and hopefully a lot better It's all about hitting the target!and btw--- that's why I like hanging around with the likes of you Vikki. You have placements... I don't. I'm looking from down here up to your level thinking... hmmm... now how does she do that Aub

[liamkelly]

Jun 12, 2008, 3:08pm, milfus wrote:yeah no doubt, its just like, I have worked with lyricists by the TONS (mainly a rap producer) and like for melody lines and stuff, they will have an idea and be scared to say somethin cause they cant put it to words, and I mean i will go so far as to actually make them hum it out, transcribe and then we can see how it sounds, i didnt mean you as in you, most times when i say you, i mean a global you, I am really tryna get out of that habit. but I mean ultimately, anyone working on a song with me, is kin to me, I will try my hardest to enable them so as much of them as possible can come through, because I mean just because I am music mainly on a project, and they are lyrics, if I have an idea for lines, or I think something needs work, I jump on it, and if they feel that way about my music, I whole heartedly encourage them to do the same, cause people are not songs, there has to be seperation, and the more perspective and appeal it has, the wider the songs appeal upon completion.How can you honestly expect large groups of people to like a song when you cant even get all the creators to like it, just seems unrealistic to me. I believe true art is its own entity that reflects its creators, if you value your ego or contributions above your song, you are doomed to fail, thats why I decided against pre-concieved notions, because if someone emotionally invests in half a song, they deserve half a song, not budging on it just means you refuse to let it grow into what it should be. Where as say if me and you sat down, and talked out an idea, then both of us planted that seed, we both want it to grow, and we both shape it into what we are both really proud of, instead of insisting half of it has to be a certain shape, theres no synergy you know.Milf Let me first say it's so good to have you back here ... Additionally, let me say that am being totally honest when I tell you that I have a lot to learn from you musically But I wonder if you're not missing my point a bit in this thread. Respectfully.How can you honestly expect large groups of people to like a song when you cant even get all the creators to like itI'm not saying that the creators don't like it just because they have to give and take a bit (and then, ergo, the public don't like it). I am just saying that different people in a songwriting team have had to give (more than they've wanted to) to their songwriting partners for the greater good. And if they did (Lennon/McCartney, Hewson/Evans) everyone was better off.But I totally get your 'respect for all components thing'. Just not totally

[milfus]

see I have found that anymore, its impossible to gauge someones actual "level", too much info and even more misinformation flying around, for me its about perspective, I try to add there ways of thought, how they see things, the why more than the how, I found it makes me a lot more rounded, and a lot more sure in my actions