Working with another writer

[jchitty]

To tell you the truth, I wish I could get everyone of my songs to turn out EXACTLY like what is in my head. Joni Mitchell once said that she tried to do that, but it was very hard. Because people have different experiences in life and different mindsets, it's so hard to get co-writers to do your songs exactly the way you want them unless you're a performing songwriter. Co-writers can't 'hear' what you're hearing, but they can come pretty close sometimes. I can understand the striving for the absolute most excellent result you can possibly achieve. I don't like to just settle for something, but I'm also aware that I'll never get the song I have in my mind (which is fairly brilliant hehe with huge symphony orchestras in the background) so I just try to get the best collab I can.Wouldn't it be cool if we were all Samantha Stevens on the old "Bewitched" show? We could just wiggle our noses, and viola, we have a beautifully finished demo, just the way we want it. Okay, I'm off to dinner folks! This thread has been very interesting!

[devin]

I think it helps if co-writers take a bit of time up front to say "what is this song about? What's the singer like? Who are they singing too?". If you can agree on what the song is trying to accomplish, it helps both sides evaluate lyric and music to see if proposed creation or changes support the nature of the song.To collaborate, we should go slow at the start, to go fast at the end?

[milfus]

I get that but too, I get around it by engaging, you do changes, they do changes, and kind of tug o war it into the middle that you are both happy with. Cause im sorry, I spent as much as a doctor learning my craft, I am not working "under" anyone, but at the same time I don't like to give orders, I just try to provoke whoever I am working with to put themselves back into the song after I have, and you just do that until you are both comfy, and both definitely in the entire song. Gotta melt it down so it flows from both of you, like water. I don't know, I have a little more freedom because I can take a song from an idea to completion on my own, so if I walk from something, I am not hard up to find a replacement, and in that, the reason I collaborate is because I want some of that person in a project with me, so from that perspective, if someone is unrecceptive, or we cant be cohesive, its cold to say, but I'd just as soon have one less headache, cause I really don't need them, I just wanted to work with them. Now that is after trying to compromise and be accomodating, It's not my way or the highway, but its give and take, if they dont want to give at all, or take at all, eh, screw em, NEXT.

[Mark Kaufman]

Songwriting collaboration is another form of marriage. It has better odds of working than being in a band, which is a multiple marriage. And being alone can be lonely...even if you CAN throw your laundry wherever you see fit.But marriage it is, and so we must communicate, we must think as a unit...to do this, we have to care about the other person. If you don't...then why do it? Just for your own purposes?Which reminds me...when someone tells me to change my part, it's an insulting imposition...and when they won't change their part, they're being stupid, stubborn and lazy.

[Casey H]

Jun 12, 2008, 2:03pm, jchitty wrote:Wouldn't it be cool if we were all Samantha Stevens on the old "Bewitched" show? We could just wiggle our noses, and viola, we have a beautifully finished demo, just the way we want it. How come on TV in the 60's, guys were married to drop-dead beautiful women who could do anything for them and they never... well... took advantage of it... In fact they outright demanded no magic... C'mon now... if you were a guy and Barbara Eden could 'blink' you per any wish you had?? And did you ever get a look at the guy's wife on "Mister Ed"? He's got her and he's in the barn with the horse all the time?? It boggles the mind... Casey

[milfus]

thats what im sayin mark, if you didnt touch each others work, you didnt collaborate as per the definition, you just tried to get as close as possible without actually connecting, which imho is a sad immitation of a collab.

[Casey H]

Jun 12, 2008, 2:16pm, lyle wrote:Which reminds me...when someone tells me to change my part, it's an insulting imposition...and when they won't change their part, they're being stupid, stubborn and lazy. Exactly... We should work together...

[jchitty]

Jun 12, 2008, 2:17pm, hurowitz wrote:Jun 12, 2008, 2:03pm, jchitty wrote:Wouldn't it be cool if we were all Samantha Stevens on the old "Bewitched" show? We could just wiggle our noses, and viola, we have a beautifully finished demo, just the way we want it. How come on TV in the 60's, guys were married to drop-dead beautiful women who could do anything for them and they never... well... took advantage of it... In fact they outright demanded no magic... C'mon now... if you were a guy and Barbara Eden could 'blink' you per any wish you had?? And did you ever get a look at the guy's wife on "Mister Ed"? He's got her and he's in the barn with the horse all the time?? It boggles the mind... CaseyLOL.

[aubreyz]

This is a very interesting and informative thread. I've only had one co-write situation that has been both successful and constantly a pleasure. (that's my buddy Ponch for those of you who don't know). One part is that since English is far from his strong point, i always win the lyric battles (actually that's not true, he wins a lot of those battles too, in fact just won one on the song we are writing now )I think the thing that makes this relationship so special (we've written around 30 songs now I think), is the mutual respect. I think he's a better writer than me, and he has said the same- but we both agree that we write better together than alone. Early on we established an informal rule - we keep working until we both agree it's right. There have been times when I thought I was right, but out of respect for his opinion tried something else-- and every time we ended up with something that we both agreed was better.Honestly, the other problems I've had with co-writing boiled down to the fact that i didn't really respect their opinion as much as my own. If you're not writing with a better writer, then why bother? Just write alone. The important thing is "CO". It can't be a lyricist and musician, it has to be 2 peers who have agreed to improve one another's abilities.As I've grown as a writer, I've become less attached to individual ideas, words, melodies, or progressions. They are like Doritos - we'll make more. I remember one song that Ponch wanted to change the arrangement for musical reasons and I had to lose a verse and rework the other verses to make it work. But it turned out better, and I've already used some of those "lost" words again. Same thing has happened the other way, for lyric or hook reasons I want to extend or delete a section and Ponch says..."hmm I don't think so but let's try it". I have to give him credit and permission to challenge my "genius" and visa versa.IMHO co-writing is difficult unless there is an equality between the writers where no single opinion is more valid than agreement. Which, btw, makes the split 50/50 no matter who's doing what. Aub

[liamkelly]

Apologies... I have sped read through this thread so what I say may have already been said Personally, I feel the greatest understanding any team can have is where their and their team-mate's strengths lie. And a songwriting partnership is just another form of team. In cricket (sorry, that's my sport) a batsman may have a few tips for a wicketkeeper, or a bowler for a slip fielder. But a team cannot have 11 bowlers... or wicketkeepers.By the same token, if your real skill in the songwriting partnership is to write melody and design appropriate harmony, well.... you should restrict your comments on lyrics to being tactful. Conversely, imagine a lyricist asking you change your immaculate progression to a I V VIm V because they just didn't get your original melodic idea.As with all partnerships, it's give....and give.... and give... and then maybe a lttle take.2cLiam