Logic Users... To Normalize or not to?

with industry Pro, Nick Batzdorf

Moderators: admin, mdc, TAXIstaff

User avatar
mazz
Total Pro
Total Pro
Posts: 8411
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 6:51 am
Gender: Male
Location: San Francisco
Contact:

Re: Logic Users... To Normalize or not to?

Post by mazz » Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:04 am

k o star wrote:Thanks Wes...

Thanks for the link Mazz...

Looks pretty technical... em
If Normalization helps to even out a drastically dynamic piece so that the softest & the loudest parts are closer... then... it might be useful if I'm tryna achieve leveling a dynamic piece I think?
Cos... after bouncing out a track, I open it in another system & bring down the highest peak vol to -3db...
& the problem I faced before was that when I do that, the softest part of the cue becomes way too soft...
Correct me if I'm wrong but this might serve a purpose with what I'm tryna achieve...
First, I normalize the track... so all parts are evenly close to 0db...
Then I open it in an Audio editor & bring the highest part down to -3db...
Would that be a good method? compared to drawing all the soft levels up in Logic...
Would I be messing up my mixes with this method?

Is there a better way to even the levels of an extremely dynamic piece?

K
The thing I'm trying to say is: normalization won't make the low parts higher and the high parts lower, it's just turning up or down the volume of EVERYTHING by the same amount. You would get the same effect by turning your speakers up or down.

Compression is what you need to use. By the nature of it's name, it compresses the dynamic range. It was originally designed for radio to keep stations from overmodulating the signal and interfering with stations on the next band over and also for vinyl because too much dynamic range would affect the phonograph's ability to play back the record and could actually make the needle jump out of the groove.

Another way to do it would be "fader riding" or drawing up the levels in Logic, and yes, you'd be messing with your mixes for sure. If you would be messing them up is really up to you and what you intend to achieve with your music.

With 24 bit recording, normalization isn't really all that necessary and I certainly wouldn't normalize every track, it's just not necessary. Have you heard a normalized orchestral bell (glockenspiel) track? It'll tear your head off!! It already cuts through the mix!!

Your music often sounds over compressed probably because that's the aesthetic you're used to from hard rock music. If you left Ozone off while you were mixing and only put it on at the end, you might have some revelations on dynamic range that you aren't getting because Ozone is already working against you on some of the more dynamic passages. It's very tempting to do loudness maximizing, etc. on stuff because it really puts it in your face and sounds cool right away. But listen closely to some film scores and you'll hear more depth and hugeness even from the soft stuff, partly because of the orchestration and partly because of the natural acoustic depth created just by the front to back distances in an orchestral layout. Let the music breathe and allow the audience to come to you. Imagine the audience leaning in instead of being pushed back by the energy of the sound.

Normalization isn't really necessary these days.

Mazz
Evocative Music For Media

imagine if John Williams and Trent Reznor met at Bernard Hermann's for lunch and Brian Eno was the head chef!
http://www.johnmazzei.com
http://www.taxi.com/johnmazzei

it's not the gear, it's the ear!

User avatar
fullbirdmusic
Committed Musician
Committed Musician
Posts: 827
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:02 am
Gender: Male
Location: Stuttgart, Germany
Contact:

Re: Logic Users... To Normalize or not to?

Post by fullbirdmusic » Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:14 am

mazz wrote:
k o star wrote:Thanks Wes...

Thanks for the link Mazz...

Looks pretty technical... em
If Normalization helps to even out a drastically dynamic piece so that the softest & the loudest parts are closer... then... it might be useful if I'm tryna achieve leveling a dynamic piece I think?
Cos... after bouncing out a track, I open it in another system & bring down the highest peak vol to -3db...
& the problem I faced before was that when I do that, the softest part of the cue becomes way too soft...
Correct me if I'm wrong but this might serve a purpose with what I'm tryna achieve...
First, I normalize the track... so all parts are evenly close to 0db...
Then I open it in an Audio editor & bring the highest part down to -3db...
Would that be a good method? compared to drawing all the soft levels up in Logic...
Would I be messing up my mixes with this method?

Is there a better way to even the levels of an extremely dynamic piece?

K
The thing I'm trying to say is: normalization won't make the low parts higher and the high parts lower, it's just turning up or down the volume of EVERYTHING by the same amount. You would get the same effect by turning your speakers up or down.

Compression is what you need to use. By the nature of it's name, it compresses the dynamic range. It was originally designed for radio to keep stations from overmodulating the signal and interfering with stations on the next band over and also for vinyl because too much dynamic range would affect the phonograph's ability to play back the record and could actually make the needle jump out of the groove.

Another way to do it would be "fader riding" or drawing up the levels in Logic, and yes, you'd be messing with your mixes for sure. If you would be messing them up is really up to you and what you intend to achieve with your music.

With 24 bit recording, normalization isn't really all that necessary and I certainly wouldn't normalize every track, it's just not necessary. Have you heard a normalized orchestral bell (glockenspiel) track? It'll tear your head off!! It already cuts through the mix!!

Your music often sounds over compressed probably because that's the aesthetic you're used to from hard rock music. If you left Ozone off while you were mixing and only put it on at the end, you might have some revelations on dynamic range that you aren't getting because Ozone is already working against you on some of the more dynamic passages. It's very tempting to do loudness maximizing, etc. on stuff because it really puts it in your face and sounds cool right away. But listen closely to some film scores and you'll hear more depth and hugeness even from the soft stuff, partly because of the orchestration and partly because of the natural acoustic depth created just by the front to back distances in an orchestral layout. Let the music breathe and allow the audience to come to you. Imagine the audience leaning in instead of being pushed back by the energy of the sound.

Normalization isn't really necessary these days.

Mazz
+1 on everything. Using Ozone WHILE mixing is probably not a good idea.
Wes Costello
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Full Bird Music - because you care about your productions. http://www.fullbirdmusic.com

User avatar
k o star
Serious Musician
Serious Musician
Posts: 3102
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2009 4:51 am
Gender: Male
Location: Victoria
Contact:

Re: Logic Users... To Normalize or not to?

Post by k o star » Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:17 am

Cool... really appreciate the explanation Mazz...
Looks like I've gotta learn some new habits from scratch...
U are right... as I've been slapping on Ozone even before I begin composing...
It works well with Rock & Hardcore Electronica... but not all genres I now think I know...
I'm definitely gonna try doing it the other way round (what U've mentioned) ^_^

K
Keltrasonics Kellosphere & KO Quantum Leap =D

©2012, K. O. STAR (Kelvin) APRA- All Songs & Artwork Registered & Protected.
http://www.kostar8.com

User avatar
k o star
Serious Musician
Serious Musician
Posts: 3102
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2009 4:51 am
Gender: Male
Location: Victoria
Contact:

Re: Logic Users... To Normalize or not to?

Post by k o star » Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:50 am

Image

Wes... i took a pic of my Adaptive Limiter while mixing down...

The level on the left hand side... that says -3.2 db

Is this where we monitor the levels so that it shouldn't go above -3 If that's the the max level I'm tryna achieve in the mix?

K
Keltrasonics Kellosphere & KO Quantum Leap =D

©2012, K. O. STAR (Kelvin) APRA- All Songs & Artwork Registered & Protected.
http://www.kostar8.com

User avatar
fullbirdmusic
Committed Musician
Committed Musician
Posts: 827
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:02 am
Gender: Male
Location: Stuttgart, Germany
Contact:

Re: Logic Users... To Normalize or not to?

Post by fullbirdmusic » Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:11 am

Kel, that's your input level. Your threshold level can be set there, with keeping the margin at near 0dB. Your input scale adjusts this. It shouldn't go red.
Next you can use the Gain knob and Out Ceiling knob to get the levels where you want them to sit. Make sure you watch your meter on the right. If you don't want it higher than -3dB, watch and make sure that it doesn't ever go over that point. Use your gain and Out Ceiling knobs to adjust this level.
Using the Input Scale is what will make it louder, along with the Gain knob at the output stage. Since it's adaptive, it will be working throughout the softer parts as well. But use your ears as well, man. HTH

PS - what's the significance of going to -3dB? I've never heard of doing that...
Wes Costello
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Full Bird Music - because you care about your productions. http://www.fullbirdmusic.com

User avatar
k o star
Serious Musician
Serious Musician
Posts: 3102
Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2009 4:51 am
Gender: Male
Location: Victoria
Contact:

Re: Logic Users... To Normalize or not to?

Post by k o star » Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:29 am

Thanks Wes!! It worked!! ^_^

I also used the RMS & Peak Level Meter in Logic to monitor the peaking... Logic Tools Rock!!

-3db is 1 of my Library's preference & I'm sticking close to the rules...
I think the reason is becos when these cues get broadcast they get compressed to bits or something...

K
Keltrasonics Kellosphere & KO Quantum Leap =D

©2012, K. O. STAR (Kelvin) APRA- All Songs & Artwork Registered & Protected.
http://www.kostar8.com

User avatar
fullbirdmusic
Committed Musician
Committed Musician
Posts: 827
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:02 am
Gender: Male
Location: Stuttgart, Germany
Contact:

Re: Logic Users... To Normalize or not to?

Post by fullbirdmusic » Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:30 am

k o star wrote:Thanks Wes!! It worked!! ^_^

I also used the RMS & Peak Level Meter in Logic to monitor the peaking... Logic Tools Rock!!

-3db is 1 of my Library's preference & I'm sticking close to the rules...
I think the reason is becos when these cues get broadcast they get compressed to bits or something...

K
Awesome dude - glad to hear it. Good luck! 8-)
Wes Costello
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Full Bird Music - because you care about your productions. http://www.fullbirdmusic.com

jdhogg
Committed Musician
Committed Musician
Posts: 793
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:00 pm
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: Logic Users... To Normalize or not to?

Post by jdhogg » Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:19 am

-3db

mazz already explained this.....its to allow them to eg add a bit of bass without having the track cross into digital distortion. ie a bit of spare headroom.

If you like the sound of your finished mixes you could use something like wavelab and normalize to -3db with a batch convert ie do them all in one hit.

jdhogg
Committed Musician
Committed Musician
Posts: 793
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:00 pm
Gender: Male
Contact:

Re: Logic Users... To Normalize or not to?

Post by jdhogg » Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:31 am

its also to introduces some consistency.
they want the mixes to be roughly the same volume.

Note I am not talking about tracks in a song but mixes.

User avatar
fullbirdmusic
Committed Musician
Committed Musician
Posts: 827
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:02 am
Gender: Male
Location: Stuttgart, Germany
Contact:

Re: Logic Users... To Normalize or not to?

Post by fullbirdmusic » Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:32 am

makes sense
Wes Costello
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Full Bird Music - because you care about your productions. http://www.fullbirdmusic.com

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests