Working with another writer

[linziellen]

Hi,I'm interested in how you guys interact and lay the foundations of a writing relationship, where do you start?How do you choose who you write with? How do you know you've found the right person? What do you look out for?Linzi

[edteja]

Those things differ with the situation and people involved. Sometimes I choose someone because I know they are good at something I am not. With one cowriter I function primarily as a lyricist. With another I primarily do the music. You know you've found the right person or people when you are having fun doing it, being challenged, having fun doing it, and writing songs you are proud of while having fun.Start by agreeing on what you want to accomplish (song to pitch to an artist, song for film tv stuff), the genre you want to work in, share info on artists you like and would like to emulate (no point in cowriting with Jimmy Webb if you are hoping to create the next hip hop hit) and some details on the business--the split, whether you want to self publish or find a publisher.And then of course you need to know what brand of peanut butter they like. I prefer organic fresh stuff you grind at the co-op. But that other stuff matters a little.

[jchitty]

Hey, Lindz...I really enjoy writing with other people. Co-writers are like friends in a way....pick someone you like and someone's who respects you and is reasonable to work with. Although some of the best songs came out of not so good relationships too....one only has to look at the songs of Lennon and McCartney to know this. Ed's got some good points here....it's good to find someone who's stronger in other areas than you....two heads are always better than one sometimes. If you're a better lyricist, look for a good melodist, and vice versa. If you're weak on production, look for someone who can help you with that. As you know, this board is great for collabs because it brings so much talent together. As far as co-writing goes, a lot of people need a lot of creative control, so if you're that type of person, you might want to co-write with a person who's more flexible. And if you're a fly by the seat of your pants type, maybe you need someone who'll take over the reigns a bit more, someone to inject some order into the process.I like to split co-writes 50-50....that way, no one seems to get upset. It's a good idea that if the project costs something, that you pay at least half the costs of course. It's mostly a matter of common sense.....just treating people like you'd want to be treated. I hope if you do find a co-writer, everything works out well for you!

[edteja]

I agree about using a 50/50 split. It's just good karma to decide to share equally in the profit and loss. I hate counting who did what. Years ago a friend and I wrote a song and we joked about the fact that he spent hours counting words in the revisions and then decided he had written 60% of it. We gave it the working title of 60/40 in honor of his wasted effort and shared it evenly anyway. It was actually the best of about thirty songs we wrote together in our wasted youth.

[aimusic]

I usually start by saying "what is your favourite beer?" and if their answer is anything other than "Heineken" it's a no go... I always prefer a 50/50 split (it just means you don't have the hassle of conflict later on when someone thinks they deserve more - I believe without that other persons input - whether it's small or big - the song wouldn't be what it's supposed to be)

[linziellen]

Thank you And what if your co writer doesn't seem as enthusiastic? Can you tell where to draw the line? I'm sure honesty is the best policy but then what do you do with your half written song, move on and find someone else to work with? What if you really want to keep some of their ideas but the two of you just don't make progress as partners!? Am I being picky? Linzi

[aimusic]

nah, I mean what you can do if things take a holt is say to the co-writer (with their permission) that you will be finding another colloborator to work with on this song (I mean the end product might not resemble anything close to what you two had worked on) and if their contribution stays in the final product - you'll negotiate a percentage to them etc....that's why I think it's important to continuously be working on a song because otherwise the flame will die and then there'll be no enthusiasm.Honesty is the best when it comes to songwriting, specially if you think your partner is not adding to the quality of the track. Before you begin writing you should make the guidelines clear about each other's input... for e.g. Hey Ted.. listen I'm a pretty chilled songwriter, so if you think my idea sux, just lemme know, then we'll work on sumin else... etc... because some people get really attached to their songs and become HIGHLY insulted when you say sumin they don't wanna hear!Now I'm just BLABBIN ON!!!

[devin]

Great post Linzi...If something is starting from just an idea, or from scratch ("hey...waddaya wanna write?"..."I dunno, waddaya YOU wanna write?"..."I asked you first!"....) Then 50/50 is a good idea. You want the other person to be motivated to keep trying. Even if they only donate a killer bridge and the intro, it makes the song stronger (and the song might never have seen daylight without their help).If you bring in a song that's basically done, then you need to talk about how the compensation will work out. Here's a couple of scenarios I keep seeing:Let's say you need something specific (a vocal track, etc). You've written out the words, the melody, and the backing tracks. You can basically: a. offer cash after the track is done, (pay real studio musicians right away for example) b. offer cash "if the song makes any money" at a later date. For example "I'll keep the first $1000 the song makes, you get the next $1000, and then I get everything after that". c. offer to barter "give me a vox, and I'll do the backing tracks for one of your songs"If you need more help than just a track, then you may be looking at splitting the song forever and a day (well, until everyone is dead plus a couple of decades)This happens if they actually helped to create a copyrightable work. Did they contribute a good chunk of the lyrics (besides a couple word suggestions, for example)? Create a vocal melody? A really recognizable chord progression for the music? (<-- this last one is different for some genres, I think? A hired musician in a studio in Nashville cutting a country track will gladly throw some guitar hooks and some lead in for the day rate...but a beat maker working on 50 Cent's latest track is expecting to get paid big dollars for putting out a quality backing track).As for gently getting out of a collaboration that didn't work out, I'm with what folks have already said. I would consider doing this:- communicate honestly. "I don't feel we're taking the song seriously enough at this time. Do you feel we're going to come up with a great product at this pace? Would you like to keep trying for a set amount of time...say from now until the end of the month, and then honestly evaluate if we should continue? I'm OK if you want to give it one more serious try...or we can agree to part ways on it right now...but I really want to keep working on it one way or the other"If you can't get them to agree to either finish it off, or pull your contributions apart, then you're basically stuck. It's a copyrighted work that you both created, and you can't use their stuff without their agreement. P.S. I've been there...and to be honest, when I look at a song that had some "good parts" in it, it wasn't a killer tune overall that was destined for greatness. Some times you have to back away and move on.(Hey, that's a good song idea Linzi! If you use it, I want.....)

[devin]

P.S. Both Brad and I are really laid back, but professional, collaborators. He's currently working on a song for me that could fall in the "a, b, c" categories above. I did a song 3 years ago in a pop style, but he's trying to funk it up as a dance tune. We're going to wait until he's done his proposal for the new song before picking a way to compensate him (and heck, he could do such an amazing job that his version is totally unique, and we'd be talking about a song split instead...we're both open!).I think in trying out a new collaborator, starting slow is the best policy. If Brad and I nail this (straight forward) collab, then we might grab a blank piece of paper and create something out of nothing in the future.I keep reminding myself..."the more unknowns in the song, the more places to get lost". Give your new collaborator a fighting chance by agreeing on a smaller project...better chance of success. If you have a specific idea Linzi, I'd be very open to hear it and see if I can help, btw.

[mojobone]

Jun 10, 2008, 5:04pm, devin wrote:Great post Linzi...If something is starting from just an idea, or from scratch ("hey...waddaya wanna write?"..."I dunno, waddaya YOU wanna write?"..."I asked you first!"....) Then 50/50 is a good idea. You want the other person to be motivated to keep trying. Even if they only donate a killer bridge and the intro, it makes the song stronger (and the song might never have seen daylight without their help).If you bring in a song that's basically done, then you need to talk about how the compensation will work out. Here's a couple of scenarios I keep seeing:Let's say you need something specific (a vocal track, etc). You've written out the words, the melody, and the backing tracks. You can basically: a. offer cash after the track is done, (pay real studio musicians right away for example) b. offer cash "if the song makes any money" at a later date. For example "I'll keep the first $1000 the song makes, you get the next $1000, and then I get everything after that". c. offer to barter "give me a vox, and I'll do the backing tracks for one of your songs"If you need more help than just a track, then you may be looking at splitting the song forever and a day (well, until everyone is dead plus a couple of decades)This happens if they actually helped to create a copyrightable work. Did they contribute a good chunk of the lyrics (besides a couple word suggestions, for example)? Create a vocal melody? A really recognizable chord progression for the music? (<-- this last one is different for some genres, I think? A hired musician in a studio in Nashville cutting a country track will gladly throw some guitar hooks and some lead in for the day rate...but a beat maker working on 50 Cent's latest track is expecting to get paid big dollars for putting out a quality backing track).As for gently getting out of a collaboration that didn't work out, I'm with what folks have already said. I would consider doing this:- communicate honestly. "I don't feel we're taking the song seriously enough at this time. Do you feel we're going to come up with a great product at this pace? Would you like to keep trying for a set amount of time...say from now until the end of the month, and then honestly evaluate if we should continue? I'm OK if you want to give it one more serious try...or we can agree to part ways on it right now...but I really want to keep working on it one way or the other"If you can't get them to agree to either finish it off, or pull your contributions apart, then you're basically stuck. It's a copyrighted work that you both created, and you can't use their stuff without their agreement. P.S. I've been there...and to be honest, when I look at a song that had some "good parts" in it, it wasn't a killer tune overall that was destined for greatness. Some times you have to back away and move on.(Hey, that's a good song idea Linzi! If you use it, I want.....) Wow! Great post, great thread! Perceptive and insightful. (is that a sentence?) The Nashville/Hip-Hop dichotomy, especially! [munches popcorn]