Working with another writer

[aubreyz]

Jun 12, 2008, 2:49pm, liamkelly wrote:Jun 12, 2008, 2:32pm, milfus wrote:I cant agree with that liam, If a lyricist wants to change music, then you change it with them, until it feels right to them, and you are happy with it, same with the lyrics, the mentality of different sides kills songs, you both want to be on the same side.at the end of the day, both names are on it, it represents both of you, both of you should actively want your name on it, if you cant achieve that, you have no buisiness working with people, cause you dont.Milf No argument here, per se I was trying to make the point (maybe poorly) that in songwriting collabs where one is ostensibly a lyricist and one a musician (given, there may be an overlap... even a significant one sometimes) it is probably handy to give in a bit more to the other's expertise.Granted, each should have some say on the other... but, in my very limited experience , partnerships more often break up because they don't fully understand the skills the other brings to the party than for any other reason.A genuine 2c RespectLiamLiam,That's a good point, but I also think that it can come down to respecting the other's opinion. Even if one has more skill in an area than another, both should know when something works or not. There's a producer I know who does mostly tv spots, he knows little about audio or music. There have been times when I thought I nailed it and he couldn't quite put into words why he didn't think it worked, but i respect him enough to keep trying until it does. Unfortunately he doesn't give me that same respect, it's either his way or no way-- so I wouldn't be working with him at all unless he's paying the bills Aub

[aubreyz]

Jun 12, 2008, 3:37pm, milfus wrote:see I have found that anymore, its impossible to gauge someones actual "level", ...Hmm. I don't think it's that tough. If I'm impressed by what i hear or read, that's a "level". Not that my opinion or level is all that grand, but it's mine and has to be the foundation that I go by. I really don't give a flip about what somebody says about someone or even their "success" when it comes to creativity. There are a lot of people on the charts that I wouldn't beat anybody's door down to write with (though I'd probably do it in a heartbeat if offered) And now I need to quit posting about co-writing and go finish some up Aub

[milfus]

oh sorry liam, that was more just reinforcing my old point, wasnt directed at you, kinda ramblin today.But my point is, the only greater good should be the song. We don't make livings acting new agey and egocentric, trust me, I have tried, we do it with our results. I just really had it with people expecting me to just shop music for what they see, or there vision, it really doesnt work like that, if someone has that much of a control issue, they need to learn instruments, I mean honestly, there isnt a lyricist in the world (self included) that would write lyrics dictated exactly like someone envisioned with no inflections, theyd tell you to get a secretary, and a book on lyrics. It just saddens me a little, we are supposed to be the bards of the new world, the peoples people, and I am not saying that ego and elitism isnt human, but its nothing I could put anywhere near something I put my heart and soul into. Professionalism doesn't have to be cold or demanding, thats assertiveness, and thats why business men jump out windows. I write songs, I love what I do, music matters very much to me, so do people, which is why my work makes money, if I focused on the money, or my ego, I would be broke, I just wish more people saw it like that.

[liamkelly]

Jun 12, 2008, 3:38pm, aubreyz wrote:Jun 12, 2008, 2:49pm, liamkelly wrote:Milf No argument here, per se I was trying to make the point (maybe poorly) that in songwriting collabs where one is ostensibly a lyricist and one a musician (given, there may be an overlap... even a significant one sometimes) it is probably handy to give in a bit more to the other's expertise.Granted, each should have some say on the other... but, in my very limited experience , partnerships more often break up because they don't fully understand the skills the other brings to the party than for any other reason.A genuine 2c RespectLiamLiam,That's a good point, but I also think that it can come down to respecting the other's opinion. Even if one has more skill in an area than another, both should know when something works or not. There's a producer I know who does mostly tv spots, he knows little about audio or music. There have been times when I thought I nailed it and he couldn't quite put into words why he didn't think it worked, but i respect him enough to keep trying until it does. Unfortunately he doesn't give me that same respect, it's either his way or no way-- so I wouldn't be working with him at all unless he's paying the bills AubAubGood reply And it, in fact, endorses exactly what I am trying to say. Because it's all about respect. Something that the producer, you're referring to, didn't have. If he'd had more respect for what you were bringing to the table, then you wouldn't've had a problem.And respect for each other's skills (in other words, identifying what the other party's better at... and giving in A BIT to it) is exactly my point.Liam

[liamkelly]

Jun 12, 2008, 3:50pm, milfus wrote:oh sorry liam, MilfusSorrys totally not needed. I always enjoy your posts I'm off to bed...later...Liam

[milfus]

yeah but squids, my point is, it should be worked until you feel you are doing your thing, and whoever feels the same, that whole, who asked who thing doesnt really fly, the opposites true too, if you didnt feel like being flexible, why'd you except? If you are doing a song with someone, you have to cease doing "you" and do like an "us" or a "we" cause that is what was signed on for, if you just want music to sing over, you should just hire a producer, pay him flat, and be done, cause you aren't looking to collab with anyone, just fill your own song gaps, get me?

[Mark Kaufman]

I like the way you collaborate Milfus. On the other hand, your way doesn't seem to allow for those people who know exactly what they want, have one piece of the puzzle, but cannot do the other thing themselves...yet they do have a solid vision for the piece, so they look for someone who can make it happen in exchange for 50%. Sometimes that works out very well.

[squids]

Jun 12, 2008, 3:46pm, aubreyz wrote:Hmm. I don't think it's that tough. If I'm impressed by what i hear or read, that's a "level". AubExactly. I've done work with people who haven't had placements and those who did, what impressed me was something in their lyrics or their music. That's what decides me. And Vikki, I get the mentoring thing, it's wonderful. I do it as well. And I'm getting benefit from it. But if I'm out for some cash, someone who's been honing their craft for a long time is more likely to help me achieve that. Not that it won't happen with someone who's jes startin' out, it could, it jes might be less likely, is all. For instance, if I was lookin' for someone to sing a certain dialect or style for a world music bit, would I jes grab someone off the street who's jes started singing? Or would I have more success with someone who's been singing that dialect or that style for a few years?

[milfus]

yeah but see, thats not co-writing, that rendering service, even if payment is 50%like say its me and you, you need music, you know what you want, you tell me you need music for YOUR song, and you will cut me in, thats fine, but its not really my song at all is it?its just your song, music done by me, and I am given 50%, I worked FOR you, not WITH you.

[hummingbird]

Jun 12, 2008, 4:14pm, squids wrote:Jun 12, 2008, 3:46pm, aubreyz wrote:Hmm. I don't think it's that tough. If I'm impressed by what i hear or read, that's a "level". AubExactly. I've done work with people who haven't had placements and those who did, what impressed me was something in their lyrics or their music. That's what decides me. And Vikki, I get the mentoring thing, it's wonderful. I do it as well. And I'm getting benefit from it. But if I'm out for some cash, someone who's been honing their craft for a long time is more likely to help me achieve that. Not that it won't happen with someone who's jes startin' out, it could, it jes might be less likely, is all. For instance, if I was lookin' for someone to sing a certain dialect or style for a world music bit, would I jes grab someone off the street who's jes started singing? Or would I have more success with someone who's been singing that dialect or that style for a few years?Don't misread me. We're saying that there are levels of experience, and that we'd like to write "up". But then we expect that person to "write down". Hardly seems fair to expect them to do that when we don't. I'm not saying you have to pull in a rank newbie. But someone who is fairly good at what they're doing who is still having hits and misses but has the right attitude might be a great collaborator.