Writing Hit Songs - Myths

[diogenes]

Thanks Geo.

[sgs4u]

My point my friend, is that there are things we can control, and some things we can't control. It seems strange to notice the same perspective as Glen, but I knew it would happen eventually. We can control the sound or content of a song, and sometimes, as in Perry's American Idol submission. The content/sound is unique enough to stand out from a pack of 40,000 songs and still be noticed. Or like Matto & Cisco's Latin tune, that won the John Lennon category. We cannot control what happens to our music after it leaves our precious little hands. It has also been my observation that one of the critical elements, left out of this equation, is that the 'team" concept is rarely a focus, from the ground up. Sure many of us attempt to and sometimes do write great songs. Even when they are fabulous, they don't go anywhere without the team. If any of the team members are missing, then the music/band or artist's forward progress ends. i was more interested in who else people think they need on their team, but the thread didn't go that way.I have absolutely nothing to complain about, please don't assume that my contribution with this thread is because I'm dissatisfied with anything, whatsoever. Quote:Steve-I'm just sharing my perspective, which is that there IS some black & white to writing commercial music (and some gray area too).What's YOUR point?

[geo]

Quote:Quote:That's why we have to take our blinders off and stop complaining about commercial viability and how it supposedly restricts our creativity. It does nothing of the sort. That's like saying a canvas restricts our painting because it has a frame. Something has to support the canvas.That is a brilliant analogy! Mind if I borrow it? The funny thing about many people who complain about not wanting to follow "commercial" music conventions is that most of their music is not nearly as exciting to others as it is to themselves. There's a reason popular music is popular (even if it does often reflect the lowest common denominator...which, by no small coincidence, makes up the masses).AndréI disagree, I have a history with a bunch of returns where the screener enjoyed my off target submission. You've got powerful ideas with the potential to have a huge emotional impact for listeners. If i may make a suggestion: I think you might be undercutting the inherent strength of this song by tackling two huge themes - personal freedom and society's injustices. Consider choosing one of these (loss of personal freedom through addiction to drugs, money, love OR loss of control over the integrity of our lives and our environment). Home in on that and drive it home for your listeners. This is of course from a return.I know it wasn't directed at me but I felt compelled to answer that statement... there's tons of exciting music (a lot made by members of this forum) that has no commercial viability... Geo

[sgs4u]

As you can see in my statement Andre, I didn't say everything is grey. I agree that there are many black and white issues, when it comes to writing great songs. I hadn't suggested otherwise. Were you expecting that I didn't want to agree with you, or has my reputation preceeded me? Quote:Quote:Are you guys trying to debate or prove an argument?I seem to be missing your point... To me, it's just not really all that black and white. OTOH, if it is for you guys, than that's great for you, carry on. Steve-I'm just sharing my perspective, which is that there IS some black & white to writing commercial music (and some gray area too).What's YOUR point?

[geo]

Steve... love the new avatar... answers the question... does Steve Gilbert ........ in the woods Geo

[matto]

Quote:I think the hopefulness here is that even if a song we write and love is really just an average solid song...it has as much chance as any other song if it hits the right ears in the industry, at the right time. But no guarantees. And there is the rub...I absolutely 100% disagree with this.Quote:I think people want and need to feel their commercial success is in their control...hence all the books and discussions about what will practically guarantee a hit if we can just create a song with certain surefire attraction...based on hard to learn but doable skills and techniques.It IS within your control, given TALENT (thank you squiddy ) hard work and perseverance. And learning your craft. And btw learning your craft doesn't necessarily mean you have to write for the market, or write hit songs, or "sell out" ...it just means investing some time in getting BETTER at what you (presumably) love to do. And 90% of the people who complain about "the crap" on the radio use it as an excuse not to have to face the fact that their own music is even bigger crap and is in dire need of improvement.Quote:Because then it's up to us, not chance and connections.The music business is a business of relationships, but unless you happen to be connected by birth, you need to have something to offer to begin building those relationships in the first place. That's why you need songs that stand out way above the crowd. It's not enough to just show up at industry parties claiming to be a songwriter...well not for me and you Glenn, maybe it would be different if we were drop dead gorgeous 20 year old chicks Quote:In the meantime, you can be proud of writing a song you feel is great, to your own ears. For some odd reason, these days a lot of creative people equate writing for themselves, the act of self expression, with ART. But self expression in itself is not art, it's just self expression...it can be utter crap, objectively speaking.A lot of creative people also think writing "to order" can never equal art. They seem to forget that some of the greatest pieces of music were written to order, and some, such as the Brandenburg Concertos, even have the name of the employer in the title...matto

[mazz]

Art for art's sake is a relatively new phenomenon in history. Most artists and composers worth their salt back in "the day" had to solicit commissions to help pay their bills. There were plenty of "commercial" pieces of music written by composers we'll never hear of but I'm sure the creators were paid for creating them. The Brandenburg Concertos stand out because they were great enough pieces to warrant performances beyond the palace of the Count they were written for.History creates greatness. Popular culture of the day can anoint any song with "hit" status but that does not make it great. Songs that warrant repeated listenings by a large number of people over decades deserve to be called classics but we cannot predict which songs of today will inspire that moniker.The people that get songs in the hands of producers (publishers, managers, lawyers, etc.) have to be excited about what they are selling, otherwise they won't touch it. If they think a song is "average", they won't be able to be enthusiastic about pitching it to their clientele. If, on the other hand, they smell "hit", they'll walk through fire to try to sell it. Does that mean the song is great? Maybe. The artist, producer, and, if it gets cut, history, will be the judge of that. The song has to be perfect for their needs, which to them that particular day means it's great.We've been down this road before, it feeds back on itself and goes nowhere.Mazz

[sgs4u]

Well, here is where you and I differ Glen. You may think you've described the real music business, but what you've described, is how it works in your mind. Mine is different, not more wrong, or more right.Nobody can have hits without the machine pushing the tune. It can't happen. Although, because of the internet, a bonafide YouTube hit, could be just as important to anyone's career as a radio hit. By that I mean really POPULAR. If you can generate a million hits a day to your web site, then you have more clout, and direct access to making money from selling your product. That can eliminate some of the variables, but certainly not all of them.Focusing on the main factors that are out of our control, is moot. Unless you have the power to influence them. There is no way out of the labyrinth of mediocrity, without GREAT songs, or a GREAT stage show. We will not get noticed without killer tunes or performances, by Taxi screeners, or anyone else for that matter. No perspective is wrong, and this is why I agree with every person's contribution to the thread. Whatever we believe about how things in the music biz work, colors our perception so much, that we are more willing to argue how things should be, based on our own experiences, than what is actually going on. Things are changing...My focus, is pretty simple. Keep getting better at all my music skills. Look and engage people that wanna play on a team. There are quite a few cats out there like Springsteen and Prince, who really can write unbelievably awesome tunes (who knows how many crappy ones they throw away), and produce them in such a fashion that they stand out. You can argue that they're not great songs, but why bother? For most of us, getting access to a bigger picture, requires that we look outside ourselves for relationships that propel our music up the ladder into situations where it can placed for maximum exposure. I don't know how else to put this. I think music is spiritually stronger, and more effective, and reaches more people, when it is the result of co-writing, and especially co-marketing. Does anyone climb Mt Everest alone?I think Michael and Taxi are INCREDIBLY important. Because without the confidence of knowing you have a GREAT song on your hands and/or access to friends in REALLY high places, we get nowhere. Taxi is absolutely the best way I've seen, to learn, grow and place any kind of music. but that's just my opinion... Quote:Seems that if an average song can become a big hit because of the several main, real-world factors he describes (big star, marketing dollars, great production, luck, executive "push")......then you could have hits by writing good, average songs and really focusing on the main factors above.In fact, I think I just described the real music business. But many songwriters look primarily at the song itself as the only factor. "Just write a great song and it can't fail", they say.But that is looking at it only through the lens of what you do and enjoy.And it doesn't help that the listings here are always asking for GREAT songs. But that's an old discussion from a month or two ago. And maybe song quality is a relatively minor factor, as long as the song is a solid, AVERAGE song geared to the current market. With good connections and a lot of luck, and somebody with money and marketing muscle who personally enjoys the song, (and thus officially dubs it "great"), they can push it onto the charts...

[ggalen]

Matt,I would agree with you about "song greatness" mattering if I heard more evidence of it in the successful songs over the past 20 years.There is lots of stuff I am blown away by. (I bow. I am not worthy. )But even more of it is, to my ears, average or below.To me, this has been a puzzle demanding an explanation. I find that explanation in what Wayne Chase claims, that these other factors matter more, as long as the song is solid.As I have mentioned before, I used to host an Open Mike night at a nationally-known folk club, and I did the first-level auditions. I heard a lot of mediocre, amateur songs and performances. Too many! I was a bit of a Simon Cowell with these folks, as far as giving them the straight story about where I thought their talent stood at the moment. I was a LOT nicer. But I was firm. And a few people got kind of angry with me, for dashing their egos of the moment.After all, Bob Dylan himself had played just down the street from my club in Minneapolis 20 years earlier (and been thrown out for singing badly). And if he was misunderstood greatness, maybe they were, too, right?I felt differently.So I do have standards and am not saying that "crap" that you feel strongly about is somehow commercially viable. Songs have to be solid to have a chance. But it seems thay only have to be "professionally average"...and then all the other factors kick in.

[ggalen]

Steve,There is the reality we each perceive...and then there is the "real" reality that is out there. But who knows how close he or she is to matching it correctly, in their head, with what is really going on?I wake up in the middle of the night in a completely dark bedroom and feel my way to the door. Grabbing the handle, I realize it's the closet door. I am on the opposite side of the room from where I thought I was!!My perspective instantly swirls around.I keep having that happen to me about so many things in the world.A new piece of data shows up and tells me that my idea of things has been off 180 degrees.It's OK. I don't beat myself up about it. I just try to be happy I have another piece of the jigsaw puzzle filled in.That's what's happening to me with this whole music business / performing career thing. I am just feeling for doorknobs and dressers, and tripping over the dog.Hopefully getting closer to knowing how it works so I can make some progress towards my goal.